Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31

Thread: Big turbo anti lag tuning

  1. #1
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    omaha ne
    Posts
    1,538

    Big turbo anti lag tuning

    So since ive went with a flashable SMEC my car is incredibly slow at spooling the turbo. I believe its timing related as ive leaned out the lower boost levels with no real change.

    First and second gear are useless. the car is lazy. When it finally builds 10psi by 6500 rpm it acts lethargic. Doesn't matter if I launch off the 2 step or can on it from a rolling start.

    Now, in 3rd,4th, and 5th gear it will build boost just fine and go like a rocket! I imagine its a load x rpm table that needs adjustment? Any help would be appreciated.

    specs
    2.5 a555
    full ported head f4 cam, HE341
    75lb hr,e85 flashable smec

    The car runs good otherwise

  2. #2
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Whitmore Lake, Michigan, Unite
    Posts
    9,918

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by forcedfedmopar View Post
    So since ive went with a flashable SMEC my car is incredibly slow at spooling the turbo. I believe its timing related as ive leaned out the lower boost levels with no real change.

    First and second gear are useless. the car is lazy. When it finally builds 10psi by 6500 rpm it acts lethargic. Doesn't matter if I launch off the 2 step or can on it from a rolling start.

    Now, in 3rd,4th, and 5th gear it will build boost just fine and go like a rocket! I imagine its a load x rpm table that needs adjustment? Any help would be appreciated.

    specs
    2.5 a555
    full ported head f4 cam, HE341
    75lb hr,e85 flashable smec

    The car runs good otherwise
    How did you do the e85 setup? I wonder if the pumpshot is giving too much fuel?
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  3. #3
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    omaha ne
    Posts
    1,538

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    I scaled it for 55lb injectors and fine tuned the the pump shot and fuelwot tables to make it correct. But it has never spooled fast with this set up (tune), this last Saturday was just really obvious because I was at the track. on the street I don't get on it in the lower gears usually so it wasn't as obvious.

    I have leaned it out to 13.5-14.3 until 12psi where it goes to 11.5

    Before (with the fwdS5) I could rev it up a few times to get the turbo going and it would launch fine and build boost quickly, now nothing helps, 2 step, reving, ridding the clutch.

  4. #4
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor rx2mazda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Baltimore,MD
    Posts
    2,925

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Sounds timing related like you said...have you triple checked your cam and verified ignition timing with a good light?
    Carroll

    SILVER, 85 GLH-R/T, TIII powered, Fueltech, ID1300's. PTE5857
    RED, 91 Spirit R/T - Holset HE351 - 12.6 @ 107...R.I.P.



  5. #5
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    omaha ne
    Posts
    1,538

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    I haven't physically changed anything on the engine since changing tunes. So I have not checked. I don't believe it would be a mechanical issue as the only thing ive changed is tune and injectors.

    I was reading that a lot of the LS guys run a ton of advance down low to help spool their turbos, but was unsure on which table to adjust to do the same on mine.

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Havertown, PA
    Posts
    9,517

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Well with the slow burn rate of E85, I would expect you would need to add a great deal of timing.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  7. #7
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Sylmar, CA
    Posts
    2,584

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Yeah, nothing new, but that's the point of alcohol - more timing or more compression or both.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  8. #8
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Whitmore Lake, Michigan, Unite
    Posts
    9,918

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by forcedfedmopar View Post
    I scaled it for 55lb injectors and fine tuned the the pump shot and fuelwot tables to make it correct. But it has never spooled fast with this set up (tune), this last Saturday was just really obvious because I was at the track. on the street I don't get on it in the lower gears usually so it wasn't as obvious.

    I have leaned it out to 13.5-14.3 until 12psi where it goes to 11.5

    Before (with the fwdS5) I could rev it up a few times to get the turbo going and it would launch fine and build boost quickly, now nothing helps, 2 step, reving, ridding the clutch.
    11.5 AFR on e85? That seems lean. It should be closer to 7.6AFR, shouldn't it?
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  9. #9
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    omaha ne
    Posts
    1,538

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    11.5 AFR on e85? That seems lean. It should be closer to 7.6AFR, shouldn't it?
    My wide band only reads to 10.0 I think anything richer than that would flood the engine completely. I know its happier at 11.5 vs 11.0;1

  10. #10
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Antonio,TX
    Posts
    10,798

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    This is anecdotal but on my aries i had a problem that caused the injectors to go wide open and the engine wouldnt actually flood until my LC1 pegged past 9:1.

    I support the timing idea. With e85 i would keep it rich in low boost and crank the timing like crazy. From what Ondonti has told me, e85 loses a lot of its knock resistance when you run it lean, which is why i say keep it rich while cranking timing.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  11. #11
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Whitmore Lake, Michigan, Unite
    Posts
    9,918

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by forcedfedmopar View Post
    My wide band only reads to 10.0 I think anything richer than that would flood the engine completely. I know its happier at 11.5 vs 11.0;1
    So, your AFR gauge is still calibrated for gas, then. In that case, 11.x is about right.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  12. #12
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    omaha ne
    Posts
    1,538

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    This is anecdotal but on my aries i had a problem that caused the injectors to go wide open and the engine wouldnt actually flood until my LC1 pegged past 9:1.

    I support the timing idea. With e85 i would keep it rich in low boost and crank the timing like crazy. From what Ondonti has told me, e85 loses a lot of its knock resistance when you run it lean, which is why i say keep it rich while cranking timing.
    A gentlemen I spoke with said something similar but he suggested leaning it out as much as possible down low to promote faster spool. Which table would i adjust to add timing in the 1-3k range? and also, how much do you suggest?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    So, your AFR gauge is still calibrated for gas, then. In that case, 11.x is about right.
    Yes, i left it on gas, more people seem to relate to it, which makes it easier on me when asking questions.

  13. #13
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tuscola, IL
    Posts
    21,441

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    From every thing I've read alcohol doesn't mind be run much richer than gas by way of comparison. Am I the only one who has gotten a turbo to spool quickly by taking out a ton of timing early on? I don't like doing that, but it will spool the turbo.

  14. #14
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Whitmore Lake, Michigan, Unite
    Posts
    9,918

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by forcedfedmopar View Post
    A gentlemen I spoke with said something similar but he suggested leaning it out as much as possible down low to promote faster spool. Which table would i adjust to add timing in the 1-3k range? and also, how much do you suggest?

    - - - Updated - - -





    Yes, i left it on gas, more people seem to relate to it, which makes it easier on me when asking questions.
    AdvanceFromRPM2 is the 'centrifugal' advance type function. Anything you add there goes directly into both P/T and WOT timing.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
    tuning wiki

  15. #15
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    omaha ne
    Posts
    1,538

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    AdvanceFromRPM2 is the 'centrifugal' advance type function. Anything you add there goes directly into both P/T and WOT timing.
    Thank you for your quick and helpful responses tonight everyone!

    Would adding to the AdvancefromRPM be the best place to start? Is there a load based timing map?

  16. #16
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Greenville/Spartanburg SC area
    Posts
    7,557

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    AdvanceFromMapWarmPart and AdvanceFromMapWarmFull would be the load based maps. You could try ramping the timing up quick in the low vacuum/low boost area (5inHg-5psi). You probably need to up all the timing advance tables up 5* or so anyway if you are on E85 and still running your gas timing tables.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  17. #17
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    omaha ne
    Posts
    1,538

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    AdvanceFromMapWarmPart and AdvanceFromMapWarmFull would be the load based maps. You could try ramping the timing up quick in the low vacuum/low boost area (5inHg-5psi). You probably need to up all the timing advance tables up 5* or so anyway if you are on E85 and still running your gas timing tables.
    Ok, im going to start by increasing the Advancefromrpm map 5* in the lower areas. 1700-3000 then letting it climb to peak. If I add to this table it will effectively increase the advance frommapwarm table correct? as the advancefrommap Is the "base" map everything else makes its changes from?

  18. #18
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,063

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Its hard to say what is wrong with your car but even if everything is perfect, an F4 cam, big turbo, and E85 is not a combo to expect to go well with the same spark map as a stock gasoline setup.

    Leaning out will not help tons with spoolup, I wouldn't purposely run 14:1 at 12 psi boost, that just seems like asking for motor abuse. E85 should spool MUCH faster if your tune is correct. If you are pulling timing and running lean, that would be more like 'anti antilag"

    You are either going to help your turbo spool by maximizing the power of your engine (optimum timing and fueling) or pull timing and dump fuel (causes fuel to keep burning out into the exhaust manifold). I prefer maximizing HP so the car drives happy. Even if your turbo won't spool your car should feel better. Expecting your boost to solve your lack of power issues that are caused by running retarded timing is sorta crazy. You could possibly get to maximum boost sooner but your car will be slower prior to getting all that boost.

    I wonder if you are using the SMEC to control boost btw.....I also like to confirm mechanical timing soundness before endless confusion ensues.

    You could always build a 3.0 that doesn't need boost to spin the tires in 1st. I think expecting big turbos to perform in 1st gear is asking a lot. Very little load for how short of a time you are in the gear. Your's seems exceptionally bad which is why I wonder about your boost control. I use an external wastegate on my He341 with grainger control. Flawless.
    Last edited by Ondonti; 09-09-2014 at 10:12 PM.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  19. #19
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Antonio,TX
    Posts
    10,798

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Yeah, I've always been kind of suspicious about anti-lag that engages way before it can really spool the turbo. Seems to me like the hot ticket would be to optimize the airflow potential of the engine (which means as much timing as you can get away with and NA-appropriate AFRs) until you are at least in the ballpark of when it is possible to spool the turbo and then maybe use antilag for 500 rpm below where it would spool anyway.

    If a good running engine cant spool that turbo until 3500 rpm (as an example) then a bad running engine (antilag) has no hope of spooling it at 2000. Ideally you would want to minimize the amount of time the engine was running badly and making no power trying to antilag the turbo to life and have the engine be making all the power it can until it gets to the point where anti-lag can actually make up the difference and get you into boost. If you start anti-lagging too soon you would actually be making time-to-boost worse.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  20. #20
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    omaha ne
    Posts
    1,538

    Re: Big turbo anti lag tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Its hard to say what is wrong with your car but even if everything is perfect, an F4 cam, big turbo, and E85 is not a combo to expect to go well with the same spark map as a stock gasoline setup.

    Leaning out will not help tons with spoolup, I wouldn't purposely run 14:1 at 12 psi boost, that just seems like asking for motor abuse. E85 should spool MUCH faster if your tune is correct. If you are pulling timing and running lean, that would be more like 'anti antilag"

    You are either going to help your turbo spool by maximizing the power of your engine (optimum timing and fueling) or pull timing and dump fuel (causes fuel to keep burning out into the exhaust manifold). I prefer maximizing HP so the car drives happy. Even if your turbo won't spool your car should feel better. Expecting your boost to solve your lack of power issues that are caused by running retarded timing is sorta crazy. You could possibly get to maximum boost sooner but your car will be slower prior to getting all that boost.

    I wonder if you are using the SMEC to control boost btw.....I also like to confirm mechanical timing soundness before endless confusion ensues.

    You could always build a 3.0 that doesn't need boost to spin the tires in 1st. I think expecting big turbos to perform in 1st gear is asking a lot. Very little load for how short of a time you are in the gear. Your's seems exceptionally bad which is why I wonder about your boost control. I use an external wastegate on my He341 with grainger control. Flawless.
    I am using the stock can, the WG hole is ported. Boost is solid. The adjustment comes from a manual controller. Also works very well. I had no issues spooling the turbo prior to tuning change and yes I am still running the fuel ignition map, which obviously needs work (which Is what I am asking help for). Are you saying I should go back to 11.5AFR in the lower boost levels because you think it will help?

    I made some changes to the advancefromrpm2 table. If it ever stops raining I will load the new changes and report back.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. 1st gen Neon Turbo tuning.
    By Mopar318 in forum EFI Tuning
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 07-29-2010, 03:37 PM
  2. 2.5L turbo I tuning
    By kwiksilver in forum EFI Tuning
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-29-2010, 04:37 PM
  3. tuning 2.5 hybrid dohc w/dbb turbo
    By roachjuice in forum EFI Tuning
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-03-2009, 08:04 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •