Daytona Track Car Spindle & Hub Upgrade

[LaserDad]

I can't seem to find any info on this topic, so here goes. I am building an '87 Daytona for track day/street use. I have already replaced the entire front/rear suspension and brakes with the '93 setup, including the 11" slotted rotors. I have the same setup on my '86 Laser, which I just did a 2 day race school with, on 215-60R-15 tires. The coilovers are from Rich Bryant's Megan Racing setup, and the rear shocks are QA1's. My axles are from The Driveshaft Shop, and are heavier than stock.

The things I learned were:
1) The 11" brakes will quickly fade, if you drag them just a bit. They were OK if I stabbed them hard and got off quick.
2) I was also told that our Neon style front wheel bearings were only good for about 13 hours. In 24 hour races, Neons will rarely make it to the end, so other cars don't even worry about them being in front.
3) 215-60R-15 tires will fit into a Daytona w/o rubbing, if you have the '93 front suspension, but tend to bog the RPM's a bit. I bought mine used, because they were cheap and I didn't worry about burning them off.

This has made me start thinking about designing a larger brake/hub setup, for the Daytona. I will probably go with 17" wheels, which would allow me to use much larger rotors and 6 piston calipers. My question is, has anyone converted our standard type hub/bearing assy's to a more robust setup?

I know that there are quite a few FWD track cars, so something should be adaptable. I just don't want to go through all the research, if someone else has already done the work. Since I will be replacing the wheels, I am free to use pretty much any make and will probably even end up with more wheel choices.

I can get any axleshaft outer half mated to the standard inner half, so I am not limited by the shafts.

[francois]

Your 11'' are fading?
I understand they are on a G-Body but still!
And those tires...

What kind of pads are you using first and that size of tires is clearly not the type (since I doubt there is something sticky for that size) that will be on par for some aggressive pad compound.

No idea about the front bearing.

Are you running SS brake line?
Are you using Race oil brake?

Before going all out on a 6 pistons set-up, I would make sure you did the best with what you have before going to put $$.
That`s my point of view.

[Oggie Fisher]

The common upgrade is the 11" rotors. I've heard that Mike Stimac upgraded to Viper brakes, but I haven't seen any details.
https://m.flickr.com/photos/83425687@N00/2627152272/

[LaserDad]

My brake lines are stainless braided, the rotors were 11" drilled and slotted, the pads are Wearever Platinum ceramic, and the fluid was Wearever DOT3.
Attachment 51629
To be fair, they faded when I dragged them, like when you are on the street. When I went back to just stabbing on them and getting right back off, they instantly came back and felt fine.
For the Daytona track day car, I plan to use ATE fluid, instead of DOT 3, and routing cooling hoses to the wheels. That alone should help a lot. I'm just looking into making something more robust.

[Vigo]

I was also told that our Neon style front wheel bearings were only good for about 13 hours. In 24 hour races, Neons will rarely make it to the end, so other cars don't even worry about them being in front.

Our wheel bearings aren't neon style, they are stronger. They are the same bearings used in Grand Caravans with GVWR of well over 4k lbs if not 5k, and an 86 daytona is not much heavier than a neon. Ask the team that races a Caravan in Lemons how many wheel bearings they are changing per race. I wouldnt be surprised if it were none.

[Reaper1]

How heavy is this car? How much power? How fast are you going at the longest front straight? How much are you using the car?

#1: 11" brake should NOT be fading if you are using RACE pads and RACE fluid. Those parts store "Wearever's" aren't going to cut it. I've run both Porterfield and Carbotech pads with good success. The Porterfields I ran were more of a street pad, but even with a little loss in initial bite they still hauled the car down. The Carbotech pads (I ran XP8's) NEVER faded! I was running ATE Ultra Blue (I don't know that you can get the blue stuff anymore because of a stupid DOT rule, but the amber should still be easily available). Running track days and such you are going to want to put racing fluid in the system.

#2: I've not heard of anybody having troubles with our front wheel bearings...ever (unless they were already toast)

As stated Mike Stimac upgraded to Viper brakes on his Daytona. I think I've heard of a few others using SRT-4 upgrade kits. The good thing about the '91-up uprights is that the caliper adapters bolt on. I'm 99% sure that you have to make your own caliper adapter to bolt on whatever calipers you want to run.

Also keep in mind that you might run into other issues if you put giant calipers up front. When I spoke with Mike at SDAC 18 I'm fairly sure he said he was running the stock 11" brake master cylinder with the Viper front brakes and 11" vented rears. He did say that he was looking into an aftermarket unit, however. I also know he runs an adjustable proportioning valve.

I think you need to really evaluate your braking system before going to upgrade things. It sounds like to me that you have barely scratched the surface when it comes to getting the most of the 11" system. I highly suggest running some brake ducts! I'd be willing to bet that running the right parts with the 11" system will net you a braking system that can handle anything you can put to it with your current car set-up. Mike even told me that the 11" brakes were really good and that he upgraded because the car had finally surpassed that level. Keep in mind that his car is a full road race car (1 Lap competitor and does time attack) that can be driven on the street, 400+hp, pretty darn light for a G-body, and he drives the living crap out of it!

I'm not saying don't upgrade...by all means go for it! I have been looking at doing this for a long time to my car, but my build plans kind of dictate it. The only reason I would be looking at aftermarket brakes is for lighter components and by going with a larger disc some of the weight savings is nullified, and you can actually add weight, which sucks. I don't know for fact, but I think the Viper set-up is heavier than our stock stuff just because of size.

[LaserDad]

Thanks for the info. That's what I was hoping to hear, because that's how I originally planned to do the Daytona build, and already have the parts for. Obviously, the rest of the track guys know nothing about our FWD cars, except for the occasional Neons, so that is what they compare to us.

Does anyone have pics of how the ducted the front brakes?

[Oggie Fisher]

There are race centric vendors online that have generic brake ducting parts that should work. Haven't done it, just though about it.

[moparman76_69]

1G neon owners use Daytona 11" knuckles as an upgrade to larger wheel bearings. I'd pick up some Hawk pads from Rich and flush the fluid out with some Wilwood Hi-temp to help with the fade.

[Vigo]

Yes, user Rbryant has some race-oriented pads for the 11" brake setup that he sells pretty cheap if i remember correctly. He bought out all the stock of a manufacturer that was discontinuing production.

[Shadowv4l]

Dot 3 fluid is also shitty for high heat. I would recommend Dot 4 ATE fluid or the Motoul 600 or whatever its called. Just go on tire rack. They sell both. Also, buy some yellow stuff ebc brakes or something.

[bamman]

Years ago TCE Performance Products was making a 4 piston Wilwood and 13 inch rotor setup for our cars. It cost around $1200-$1300. I looked at their website just for fun and found they do make a lot of custom brakes, including a setup for the Consulier GTP:

http://www.tceperformanceproducts.co...stoms/kits-46/

If you want to spend that much.

[Reaper1]

That's right! I remember that now. It was being advertised in Grassroots Motorsports for a little while.

[Oggie Fisher]

Looks like Wah's GTP.

[Reaper1]

It is his.

[Vigo]

For sale for 40k.

[acannell]

I would REALLY LIKE to machine custom calipers and rotors for our cars. Of course I have absolutely no idea how to design brake calipers but man would it be awesome. Just pick how many pistons you want and let the games begin.

If someone could just show me the rough idea..i.e. if there is any special geometries or if its all really just a straight wall hole with an oringed piston.

For instance..there must be a way to get this info:

1- is it known if there is a reconditioning method that involves boring out existing calipers, and does that method produce a straight walled hole
2- is there any solid information on oring material, groove dimensions/compression (could geometry from measuring existing designs..but not sure how to get oring material)
3- what materials should be used for what (aluminum, steel, cast?) (could see what aftermarket calipers are made of..arent some aluminum?)
4- how big would we really want assuming only wheel size is our limiting factor

[zin]

Breaks, or "safety equipment" in general are a "sticky wicket", most folks don't realize that Simpson, probably the best known and,"longest lived" names in the industry has been put out of business many times due to lawsuits. If not for his determination and legal smarts, the Simpson name would have never been known at all!

So, while I know no one here would instigate legal shenanigans, the wife of the guy they hit when something went wrong with their brakes almost certainly would, if they thought (or their lawyer thought) they'd get "justice".

That all said, the piston seals and how well they seal would be the most critical part to get right, on disc brakes, they keep fluid where it needs to stay,but also retract the piston that tiny amount needed to eliminate drag.

I'll take mine in 8-10 piston style with a radial mount please!

Mike

[acannell]

Breaks, or "safety equipment" in general are a "sticky wicket", most folks don't realize that Simpson, probably the best known and,"longest lived" names in the industry has been put out of business many times due to lawsuits. If not for his determination and legal smarts, the Simpson name would have never been known at all!

So, while I know no one here would instigate legal shenanigans, the wife of the guy they hit when something went wrong with their brakes almost certainly would, if they thought (or their lawyer thought) they'd get "justice".

That all said, the piston seals and how well they seal would be the most critical part to get right, on disc brakes, they keep fluid where it needs to stay,but also retract the piston that tiny amount needed to eliminate drag.

I'll take mine in 8-10 piston style with a radial mount please!

Mike

first person with a caliper and piston sitting on the bench to take some measurements with a caliper wins!

BTW if someone wanted to pony up the bucks I'm sure all this info could be had from ASE papers and/or patents (free).

[Reaper1]

Just look at rebuild kits for brake calipers.