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Thread: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

  1. #61
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Neat where did you source that?

  2. #62
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Off the hood of a benz right? :P

    I want one of those too..
    MinivanRider

  3. #63
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    http://howertonengineering.com/hower...quamist-items/


    Jeff Howerton, here in CA, is a dealer for Aquamist. Not that I have hands on experience or complete knowledge, but so far, to me, the Aquamist systems - controllers & redundant ECU interfaced fail safes - appear to be the best in the industry.


    As for these rings, I ordered the 2" size because that's the inlet size I have but I am concerned about its effect on the flow into the turbo inlet. The angle of the available jets' spray is also a part of the size selection.


    IIRC, there were tests done by contributors to this site that concluded that one "cork" in a T2 system was the stock airbox and perhaps the diameter of the pipe leading to the turbo inlet.


    This ring, in order to ensure that the spray hits the roots of the inducer's blades, must sit tight, right on the face of the inlet, and obviously the ring's three supports and the jet holder assembly, in that position will impede inlet air flow. The answer to this is to obtain a jet with a narrower spray angle/cone and then locate it and its holder ring farther out, in the throat of a 3" or 4" inlet pipe transition, where the ring's area is a smaller percentage of the inlet's total area. That is for later. For now, I'll experiment with the jet angles that come with the rings. The ring's threading is metric so you have to buy an Aquamist jet for it, you can't use the more common 1/8 NPT threaded jets.
    Last edited by johnl; 08-12-2014 at 01:46 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  4. #64
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    I wonder if there are any race class turbo cars with turbo inlet limitations that are allowed to run pre turbo injection. That would be some good data. I sorta assume its illegal since the outlaw classes mentioned in a thread I posted were sketchy/secretive on its use. I said above that its a bad idea to overspin but it would be kinda fun to have a car at its flow limits (way off the map to the right) and make more power because you are able to knock down heat.

    When I was searching and found this thread
    http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=547335
    Interesting setup with a nozzle right over the shaft nut!

    I also found this.. Had heard of the Fopar before but these were some fun pics.

    http://www.fullboost.com.au/forum/sh...Daytona/page14
    http://www.performanceforums.com/for...-Daytona/page4
    Last edited by Ondonti; 08-12-2014 at 01:43 PM.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  5. #65
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Yeah, now you're talkin.

    This just arrived, tiny filter too.

    Can't upload the pic. Maybe I need to delete some pics from "manage attachments?" How do I do that?
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  6. #66
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Quote Originally Posted by wallace View Post
    If you do set this up I would really like to know if spraying in the inlet has any affect on spoolup. It would require spraying before the spoolup has occurred.
    http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh....php?t=1603034

    See that thread, great stuff. First 16 pages are great. Pre-turbo meth or 50/50 helps spool, creates gains in shaft power.

    Best posts in the thread are by Kjewer1, for example :

    " . . . The difference with injection pre-compressor (as far as

    temps go) is that the cooler the inlet temp of the air, the

    cooler the outlet temp, and the difference is greater than

    the difference at the inlet. In other words, a 20 degree drop

    in inlet temp is worth more than 20 degree drop at the

    compressor outlet. Cooler air is easier to compress. So if

    you're going to inject, pre-turbo is worth a look. . . . "
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  7. #67
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Are any of these guys injecting pre-turbo using intercoolers? I dislike the idea of having a large vessel of pressurized air and fuel under the hood.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  8. #68
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Are any of these guys injecting pre-turbo using intercoolers? I dislike the idea of having a large vessel of pressurized air and fuel under the hood.
    Some of us cold start injector guys with fogger systems don't worry about it. Once you've blown an intake manifold apart, and realize the fire goes out on its own, you don't think about it much..

  9. #69
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Those are all injected downstream of the intercooler, greatly reducing the size of the bomb


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  10. #70
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    I'd say by the condition of the charge pipes and air filter, it's not too different.

  11. #71
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Mike, the way it is done is with at least two high PSI sprays, 100 PSI or better, one before the turbo and another one or two before the throttle body. The pre turbo nozzle is perhaps 3 gallon per minute, beginning at maybe 5 pounds of boost, with the other two being 5s and coming on later. So, they're staggered.

    Then, the spray is NOT flammable - pure water, or at most 50/50 meth/water, is sprayed so zero bomb effect.

    In that thread there is back and forth, on pure water vs 100% meth, with a conclusion - water or mix for street, pure meth for track. Mix and 100%, of course, add fuel.

    Also discussed, best bang for buck is to use pre-turbo injection to enable a small stock turbos to pump more weight of air across their entire map, and also to substitute/avoid need for big/bigger intercoolers, and lastly to improve a big turbo's spool.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  12. #72
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post

    The other part to this is the compressor efficiency. Because the aerodynamics of the compressor is fixed, it is the most efficient and "happy" in a certain area. We see this as the "island" on the compressor map. What that is actually saying is that the compressor is using its designed in aerodynamics to the maximum. Now, if we go off to the right of the map, the "island" lines are indicating compressor wheel rpm. When we start trying to make the turbo move more air than it is designed for we have to spin the compressor faster.


    We all know what the speed of sound is. I don't know how many of you all know about airplanes, but airplanes with propellers have a limit on how fast they can spin their prop. It's not that they couldn't spin it faster, it's that the prop becomes inefficient and can start vibrating because the very tips of the blades are breaking the sound barrier. They already get very close as it is (and do on occasion go supersonic for short bursts)..
    Interesting, is this the sound when say WW-II planes make when diving or even going down...

    I'm only going by old movies, news reels etc. but the sound of propeller planes in distress is usually the same...

    Asked with deep respect to those who served, past and present.

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
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  13. #73
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    115 PSI Chinese pump and Jabsco accumulator, both rated for methanol. They fit in center of the GLHT's stock compact spare tire. 50/50 H20/methanol feeds from rear window washer reservoir into low side of the pump by way of 50 feet of 1/2" poly hose coiled around the outside of the compact spare.

    Methanol rated 3/8 line runs forward; it snakes around perimeter of GLHT's cargo area, enters the unibody frame rail under the driver's side seat and emerges in the front of the driver's side front wheel well. Amazingly, the stock jack still fits next to the pump, under the fiberboard wheel cover.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by johnl; 06-01-2016 at 07:31 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  14. #74
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    That's clever. What's the reasoning with the 50ft of hose and the accumulator?

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  15. #75
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Those fountain parts there John.?

    Love the use of space. What do you have triggering it?

    Mike
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

    Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
    - Edmund Burke

  16. #76
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    50 foot of hose substitutes for a tank and it fits in the place that I have available - the wheel well.

    The pump is pressure actuated; it should automatically turn on every time the pressure drops below 115 pounds, or whatever minimum pressure I set it at.

    The job of the accumulator is to take a load off the pump. It's a pressure and volume reservoir with a bladder (see the Schrader valve?) such that it will reduce on/off/on again cycling of the pump every time boost demands fluid and drops line pressure. It also ensures that the two sequentially triggered nozzles cannot outrun the pump with surge demand for more fluid than the pump's capacity to deliver both sufficient pressure and volume.

    Triggered by two Hobbes switches activating two meth compatible high pressure solenoid valves. One nozzle will fire at the compressor nut and a second will fire at the throttle body butterfly. I haven't decided which will fire first or at what points in the boost curve. Starting with 3 GPM at the compressor nut and 5 GPM at the TB.

    Not fountain parts but RV parts; this sort of accumulator and pump set up does the same thing - pressure and volume assurance - for surge demands for potable water in motor homes.
    Last edited by johnl; 06-02-2016 at 03:58 AM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  17. #77
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Neat! Link to where you got the parts?... :-)

    Mike
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

    Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
    - Edmund Burke

  18. #78
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Any info on the effects of exposing an aluminum intercooler core to methanol?
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  19. #79
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    This isnt specific to intercoolers, but heres a linke to test data on 6061-

    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a193978.pdf

    I've seen it eat holes thru aluminum floatbowls so its def a valid worry. I get the impression from speaking to peeps who had problems that when you dilute it in water it gets worse not better.
    MinivanRider

  20. #80
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Looks like many racers that use meth for fuel are also adding "Top End Lube" to their fuel to prevent corrosion of aluminum fuel and intake system components. I guess that would do the same in this instance, but then you would undoubtedly be collecting oil in your intercooler.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

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