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  1. #1
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Seems like it might be a good idea to beat the air to a high temp with a responsive small turbo but then, instead of using a big compressor to hold outlet temps down, do whatever other things it takes to make sure the charge air temp is low. For instance, I'm building an Air/Water IC system with short fat pipes and good heat exchanger capacity, with which I hope to get more IAT reduction with less charge air pressure loss than can be achieved with an Air/Air IC.


    Now, to go farther - even lower IATs. How about what I read here? -

    http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...articles_id=40
    at paragraph 7 that a "staggered" dual nozzle system, with one nozzle before the compressor in addition to one before the throttle body is better than a single pre TB, nozzle set up.

    Then, another WA idea - why not cool the turbo with a dedicated/turbo only radiator and electric pump? Other than convenience, why do we pump 200* coolant into the turbo? For that matter, assuming an oil cooler that can handle the oil pressure, why not cool the turbo's oil too?

    Here's links to a couple of pertinent posts in the A/W IC thread -
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1038089

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1043690
    Last edited by johnl; 07-15-2014 at 12:23 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  2. #2
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    I should have referenced Paragraph 1 - from which the following:

    "By cooling the air as it's being compressed within the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, the compressed air is now substantially cooler, more dense, taking less space and moves more efficiently through the compressor allowing us to pack and process more air through the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger. This leads us to our second benefit. Improved compressor efficiency.

    All of this results in improved compressor efficiency. Because of this improved efficiency the compressor does not have to work as hard to produce the same amount of boost as without the water methanol injection. In turn it raises the maximum mass air flow of the compressor. Thereby, making a smaller turbocharger . . . . perform like a larger turbocharger?
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  3. #3
    boostaholic
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    I think its worth a try, makes a lot of sense. May not be so easy to get a decent temp reduction on ambient air though. Heat differential is what makes cooling happen!
    MinivanRider

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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrider View Post
    I think its worth a try, makes a lot of sense. May not be so easy to get a decent temp reduction on ambient air though. Heat differential is what makes cooling happen!
    Rider, what really hits me between the eyes is the possibility of making a small compressor perform like a bigger one by way of pre-compressor cooling.


    I mean get a jump on it. We're all obsessed with big FMICs and hybrids with their point being to get quick boost with low IAC temps. Meanwhile we ignore the benefit to be obtained by cooling before the compressor.


    And, of those few on this forum who use some kind of H2O/Alky injection, and who may even use staged or progressive systems with more than one nozzle, none of them (that I know of) has a nozzle ahead of the compressor.
    Last edited by johnl; 07-16-2014 at 05:04 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    The water circulating through a turbo is to cool the bearing housing. It will have little or no effect on charge air temp.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  6. #6
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    The water circulating through a turbo is to cool the bearing housing. It will have little or no effect on charge air temp.
    Yes Mike, I share that assumption - that there is little engine heat transferred to the compressor housing or to the inducer shaft/wheel by the use of engine coolant. Just questioning assumptions here.


    I mean, how much heat can be pulled out of the center section and the compressor housing and shaft/inducer if it's coolant is ambient temperature?


    Similarly, suppose an electric oil pump dedicated to the turbo with its own oil cooler, running a thin synthetic with no chance of engine debris? Easy peasy with a BB turbo. Why pre-heat the turbo with hot engine oil? And, why heat the engine with hot turbo oil?

    Yeah, maybe the differences are minor. OK, but does anyone know? Or, are we all just following the OEM engineers' bean counter dictated choices?
    Last edited by johnl; 07-16-2014 at 05:07 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  7. #7
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    I think H2O/alcohol injection has great potential!!! I have been looking/thinking about ways to use it more effectively on my next combo! I was currently using a progressive set up before the TB.

  8. #8
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    If you look at some of the old style drag bikes with suck-thru turbos, compressor wheel erosion shouldn't be that big of a deal. I guess it all depends on how much liquid you're pumping.

    The AC setups on the 40's cars with the big hanging off the window devices is what I think of when you're talking trying to cool ambient air. That and swamp coolers neither of which work that great.

    You can't use 50% alcohol in swamp coolers tho. :P
    MinivanRider

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    I used a nozzle ahead of the compressor on an early TI setup. No ill effects that I can report.
    I wouldn't use that method in conjunction with an intercooler though.

    If I had time and money to spare, I would have liked to take that combination a few steps further. But the TII swap was the smarter move.
    Last edited by contraption22; 07-16-2014 at 02:25 PM.
    Mike Marra
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  10. #10
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    In the linked promo stuff it says that theoretically (1) the place to use 100% alcohol/meth is before the compressor because it evaporates/consumes heat better than 50/50 at that pre-compression point while (2) 100% water is better before the TB in order to control detonation by reducing combustion/EGT temperatures.

    It also said that the alcohols erode the inducer less than H2O because they are less dense.


    Of course, those two theoretical points are offset by the facts that 100% alcohol/meth is a fire hazard and pre-TB you may want to use 50/50 to richen the mixture.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  11. #11
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Here's the part I referenced, said more precisely -

    " . . . . .When done properly, very little of the water methanol mist injected into the inlet of the compressor survives the process. Thereby, discharging a much cooler air charge with a relativity high humidity with very little or no water methanol droplets present.

    When injecting water, we can quickly over saturate the air charge and have an excess of fluid discharging the compressor. Water has a much higher latent heat of vaporization, nearly double that of methanol, and does not flash (instantly evaporate) like that of methanol or other alcohols when injected into a hot air stream. Therefore, a smaller nozzle must be used when spraying pure water.

    A better choice for pre-compressor injection is a greater concentration of methanol vs. water or pure methanol. Methanol instantly flashes (evaporating) as soon as it enters into a hot compressor and meets the heat within it. By using an alcohol, this dramatically reduces the amount of actual fluid exiting the compressor due to it‘s fast evaporation. Additionally, methanol offers much greater cooling effect then water. Furthermore, methanol is also less dense then water thereby having a softer impact on the impeller. The specific gravity of pure methanol is .792 @ 68° F compared to water which is 1.00 @ 64° F.

    One major concern associated with pre-compressor injection is erosion of the impeller. This is only likely to occur when injecting solid stream of water at the impeller of a turbocharger or using an excessively large nozzle .. . . . .."
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  12. #12
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    I'll be watching this since I have a T1 suck thru setup and in that case pre TB is in front of the compressor. I've been thinking of getting a snow water injection kit and giving it a try.

  13. #13
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    I would be concerned about the long term effects of exposure to methanol on the aluminum compressor blade. Maybe spray it down with fogging oil now and then if you're gonna let it sit.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Another idea, obviously not new - why not pressurize a sealed container of meth/water with boost? and then let boost drive a nozzle, fed from that container, ahead of the compressor? No need for a pump or a Hobbes switch or electrics. Completely progressive too.

    To prevent vacuum from sucking the mix back into the intake during deceleration/off boost, place the boost barb connection well above the "water level," or put a one-way check valve in the boost line to the container.

    If I was in the business of selling H2O/alky injection pumps and solenoids and switches at three to five fold markups, I wouldn't highlight this idea, and, (not to knock Mike) I'd exaggerate the inducer erosion problem.


    Might be necessary to tune the boost to the container with sized orifices? or small diameter vacuum hose? to prevent too much volume of boost air and thence spray, or maybe use one or two small nozzles so that it has a staged delivery? or a small unrestricted nozzle followed by a second larger nozzle pressure switched by a two port (or flow through) pressure relief valve?
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  15. #15
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Are you intercooling this setup? I would be concerned with methanol puddling in the cooler and piping if spraying in the compressor inlet.

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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Quote Originally Posted by wallace View Post
    Are you intercooling this setup? I would be concerned with methanol puddling in the cooler and piping if spraying in the compressor inlet.
    Yes, and yes, it is a concern.

    Methanol flash evaporates so that's why they talk of pure or high % for pre-inducer and with low pressure boost driven nozzles, that would present a safety hazard. That is, with a boost driven nozzle, the "misting" is more likely to be a squirt or at least a squirt until higher boost is achieved.

    So that brings us to the question of how to get boost driven nozzles to really atomize and effectively turn 50/50 into a misty near gaseosness (is there such a word?) . . . .

    The difficulty of that problem brings me back to just a small pre-inducer high pressure nozzle, driven by a pump, that comes on early with 50/50 to get the superior marginal returns to be had from pre-inducer chemical cooling with (because it is a small low volume nozzle at high psi) little risk of puddling/condensation in the IC, followed by a second larger pre-TB/post IC nozzle that adds the conventional cooling/fueling benefits of H2O/Meth injection.

    If the barb/take out point for the boost (in a boost driven system) was the bottom of the intercooler, then it would drain most if not all of any 50/50 mix that might condense in the intercooler and send it back to the pressurized tank from which it came for re-injection by the boost driven nozzle. I assume that the big risk with condensed 50/50 accumulating in the system is not fire/explosion but that at WOT a big gulp of liquid could hydro lock the engine.
    Last edited by johnl; 07-18-2014 at 04:01 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  17. #17
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    You may not need an intercooler depending on how much you intend to inject.

  18. #18
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Yeah, diminishing marginal returns; has anyone ever pushed IATs below ambient? Seems like with a combo mechanical IC and chemical IC you could.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  19. #19
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    Quote Originally Posted by johnl View Post
    Another idea, obviously not new - why not pressurize a sealed container of meth/water with boost? and then let boost drive a nozzle, fed from that container, ahead of the compressor? No need for a pump or a Hobbes switch or electrics. Completely progressive too.

    To prevent vacuum from sucking the mix back into the intake during deceleration/off boost, place the boost barb connection well above the "water level," or put a one-way check valve in the boost line to the container.

    If I was in the business of selling H2O/alky injection pumps and solenoids and switches at three to five fold markups, I wouldn't highlight this idea, and, (not to knock Mike) I'd exaggerate the inducer erosion problem.


    Might be necessary to tune the boost to the container with sized orifices? or small diameter vacuum hose? to prevent too much volume of boost air and thence spray, or maybe use one or two small nozzles so that it has a staged delivery? or a small unrestricted nozzle followed by a second larger nozzle pressure switched by a two port (or flow through) pressure relief valve?
    This is how my old system worked. Boost pressurized the reservoir an it sprayed into throttle body ahead of the compressor. I still used a Hobbs switch and a solenoid to prevent siphoning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wallace View Post
    You may not need an intercooler depending on how much you intend to inject.
    Many turbo and supercharged drag cars fueled with alcohol do not use intercoolers.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  20. #20
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    Re: Staggered H2O/Meth injection

    [QUOTE=contraption22;1048489]This is how my old system worked. Boost pressurized the reservoir an it sprayed into throttle body ahead of the compressor. I still used a Hobbs switch and a solenoid to prevent siphoning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Did you ever log the reduction when spraying the fluid? Did you see any erosion of the compressor wheel?

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