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Thread: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

  1. #41
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    Quote Originally Posted by 85boostbox View Post
    Careful your car is going to blow up
    Everybody tunes to 11.4-11.8 here at altitude on E85, I don't think you have a clue what your talking about....

  2. #42
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    Quote Originally Posted by MILKCARTON View Post
    Everybody tunes to 11.4-11.8 here at altitude on E85, I don't think you have a clue what your talking about....
    I'm with this guy on the afr. Wbo2 reads oxygen content not fuel composition or type. It does not matter what fuel you are running. How does using the lambda reading change what the sensor does? It is still a representation of the amount of oxygen present in the exhaust.

  3. #43
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    Quote Originally Posted by MILKCARTON View Post
    Everybody tunes to 11.4-11.8 here at altitude on E85, I don't think you have a clue what your talking about....
    Obviously you did not see my sarcasm in my comment. I know exactly what I am talking about. That comment was for running 22 pounds with no intercooler and E85 ran on the lean side. I understand altitude plays a major factor in tuning. If you brought it down to sea level, then you could probably get away with even leaner according to AFR.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wallace View Post
    I'm with this guy on the afr. Wbo2 reads oxygen content not fuel composition or type. It does not matter what fuel you are running. How does using the lambda reading change what the sensor does? It is still a representation of the amount of oxygen present in the exhaust.

    http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html

    Please read and you will better understand widebands and different stoich for fuels.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    .........
    Last edited by wallace; 06-14-2014 at 07:06 AM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    However most AFR gauges you can purchase to display a numerical value of the AFR, are showing you values for gasoline. This is where it can get tricky, and it's important to understand how this ratio works on both gasoline and ethanol-based fuel.

    All AFR's regardless of fuel type work off of a common number called Lambda. A value of 1.0 in Lambda represents the stoich for any fuel. Gasoline is Lambda 1.0 at stoich. E85 is Lambda 1.0 at stoich.

    This is off of that site. I understand you have first hand experience but you "might" have not been using the E85 to its full advantage. Tuning AFR in gasoline values means your pigging out on E85. Here is that thread that I was talking about.

    http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/tun...th-e85.366625/
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  6. #46
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    I gotcha now, missed the sarcasm....DSM's rule the streets here, I was in an EVO the other night, 2.4 super 99 turbo@42 psi 2-4th gear pull against a highly modified GTR, and at 8500 rpm's in 4th gear it was at 11.8 on the wideband on E85 that we just filled up on that tested @90%. The Evo trapped 141 at out track the next day and has been together with that tune for years....

  7. #47
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    Quote Originally Posted by 85boostbox View Post
    I'm trying to find the link for the thread that I found on guys running 12.4 to 12.8 afr with 20* timing and 30 pounds of boost and laying big numbers down.
    it would be nice to know what the wideband was set up for. If still for gas, that 12:1 Afr would be more like 7:1 in e85, so still in the realms of 50% more.
    Ian Adams Function>Form 1990 shadow scrapped, too rusty:( 1991 Spirit R/T Scrapped, parts sold:( 1989 Turbo Caravan Daily beater with built-[I]ish [/I]​engine slowly evolving into weekend turbo beater.

  8. #48
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    You have that backwards. It would be the same.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    Quote Originally Posted by 85boostbox View Post
    You have that backwards. It would be the same.
    14.7:1 is lambda 1 in gas, 9.7:1 is lambda 1 in e85. If the gauge is set to readout gas AFR numbers while running e85 a reading of 12:1 will be 7.9:1 actual.
    Ian Adams Function>Form 1990 shadow scrapped, too rusty:( 1991 Spirit R/T Scrapped, parts sold:( 1989 Turbo Caravan Daily beater with built-[I]ish [/I]​engine slowly evolving into weekend turbo beater.

  10. #50
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    Quote Originally Posted by shackwrrr View Post
    14.7:1 is lambda 1 in gas, 9.7:1 is lambda 1 in e85. If the gauge is set to readout gas AFR numbers while running e85 a reading of 12:1 will be 7.9:1 actual.
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  11. #51
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    No. Let me break it down like this. Now we are getting scientific here. Different fuels have different reactions with air. SO gasoline for instance, it takes 14.7 parts of air to ONE part fuel to get a stoichiometric mixture. Nothing richer nothing leaner. Ethanol take 9.7 parts of air to ONE part ethanol to get stoichiometric mixture. Doesn't mean you have to add more ethanol to get that mixture. Doesn't mean that you have to add less gas to get that mixture. It is just the properties of what it burns at to get stoich. That is why you can successfully "lean" out E85 on gasoline tune. Hope this makes since. Because no matter what you do your not tuning off of AFR, your tuning off of the lambda for the specific fuel. That is why O2 sensors register in lambda and not in AFR.

    Actually MILKCARTONS daily is a perfect example of what I am trying to explain. He says he is running 22 pounds of boost, with only +40's and a obvious good tune with NO intercooler. His AFR registers as 11.8. MOST gasoline cars with the same setup are running out of what the gasoline can handle to keep detonation down WITH a intercooler with the same AFR. People typically wont even run a 11.8 AFR with gasoline without considering that LEAN.

    Hope this makes sense.
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  12. #52
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    Quote Originally Posted by 85boostbox View Post
    No. Let me break it down like this. Now we are getting scientific here. Different fuels have different reactions with air. SO gasoline for instance, it takes 14.7 parts of air to ONE part fuel to get a stoichiometric mixture. Nothing richer nothing leaner. Ethanol take 9.7 parts of air to ONE part ethanol to get stoichiometric mixture. Doesn't mean you have to add more ethanol to get that mixture. Doesn't mean that you have to add less gas to get that mixture. It is just the properties of what it burns at to get stoich. That is why you can successfully "lean" out E85 on gasoline tune. Hope this makes since. Because no matter what you do your not tuning off of AFR, your tuning off of the lambda for the specific fuel. That is why O2 sensors register in lambda and not in AFR.

    Actually MILKCARTONS daily is a perfect example of what I am trying to explain. He says he is running 22 pounds of boost, with only +40's and a obvious good tune with NO intercooler. His AFR registers as 11.8. MOST gasoline cars with the same setup are running out of what the gasoline can handle to keep detonation down WITH a intercooler with the same AFR. People typically wont even run a 11.8 AFR with gasoline without considering that LEAN.

    Hope this makes sense.
    What you say in this post actually goes toward what I said. Lambda of 1 on different fuels has different values of parts of air to fuel. So if the gauge is set up to read gasoline, the gauge is working on a scale that is centered around 14.7:1, which is the lambda 1 value for gasoline. If you leave the gauge as is and fill the tank with e85 the gauge will now read inaccurate due to ethanol's difference in lambda value. So say you were running 7.9:1 air fuel ratio actual of ethanol, the gauge would show as 12:1 because the gauge is set up for gas.

    Im not saying that you can't run a leaner mix due to the cooling factor and octane of the e85
    Ian Adams Function>Form 1990 shadow scrapped, too rusty:( 1991 Spirit R/T Scrapped, parts sold:( 1989 Turbo Caravan Daily beater with built-[I]ish [/I]​engine slowly evolving into weekend turbo beater.

  13. #53
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    You might not be saying it, but everyone else believes it like that.
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  14. #54
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    None of this is really making any sense to me lol.
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  15. #55
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    not that it matters, but I ran 18 psi on e85 2.2 log setup, no intercooler, stock computer with map clamp, +20 (flex fuel) inj, ign timing set at 14*, g-head pistons with swirl head for 6 months. only thing I blew up was my 525...

    I feel as if it ran better when first fired up before the computer had a chance to "learn" afr, I think the computer made it to rich... when I pulled it apart, no signs of detonation or corrosion

  16. #56
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    Re: Decided to run a e85 blend in my Neon

    differences in A/F vs. Lambda on different fuels.

    Fuel / AFR/ Lambda
    Gasoline stoichiometric 14.7 / 1
    Gasoline max power rich 12.5 / 0.8503
    Gasoline max power lean 13.23 / 0.900
    E85 stoichiometric 9.765 / 1
    E85 max power rich 6.975 / 0.7143
    E85 max power lean 8.4687 / 0.8673
    E100 stoichiometric 9.0078 / 1
    E100 max power rich 6.429 / 0.714
    E100 max power lean 7.8 / 0.870

    if you notice stoich is always stoich on the lambda scale no matter what blend you are using. set your wideband to display lambda or you will confuse the hell out of yourself.

    http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fue...ison_chart.pdf

    taken straight from the government website listed above;

    1 gallon of E85 has 73% to 83% of the energy of one gallon gasoline (variation due to ethanol content in E85). 1 gallon of E10 has 96.7% if the energy of one gallon of gasoline. [2]

    right around 20%-25% more fuel is required depending on the blend of E85 you have available.

    the numbers match up with what I was seeing in real world testing about 6 years ago when I first started experimenting with ethanol.

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