The awesome power of a fully operational 50-trim Spirit R/T

[iTurbo]

A local friend of mine is building a Spirit R/T and has come a long way with it. We are wondering just how far we can go (safely), and make even more power. This car is head and shoulders above anything I've built before. Current boost level is ~ 20 psi.

Short list of specs:

Short block:
2.2L TIII engine
stock bore/pistons and new rings (recent hone)
balance shafts deleted

Head:
Stock TIII
Ti valve spring retainers
new lifters from FWDP
stock cams and sprockets

Manifolds:
Stock TIII intake manifold
FWDP ported exhaust manifold

Turbo:
Garrett 50-trim T3/T4 hybrid from ATP Turbo with Stg III turbine. Compressor housing is .60 A/R T04E and turbine housing is .72 A/R T3 (Cosworth style like stock TIII).

Exhaust:
3" FWDP downpipe
no catylitic converter
3" FWDP cat-back exhaust
3" Dynomax Ultraflo muffler

Intake/Intercooler:
2.75" mandrel bent intake with open element filter where battery was (now trunk mounted)
FWDP intercooler with 2.5" in/out
all mandrel bent aluminum piping

Electronics:
FWDP Stg IV SBEC
+40 injectors
3-bar MAP
battery relocated to trunk

Fuel system:
3/8" Poly Armour fuel lines supply and return
Stock fuel sender modified for 3/8" in/out
Walbro 255 ltr/hr pump
ATP -6AN filter
FWDP fuel rail
Summit braided stainless -6AN hoses
Aeromotive adjustable regulator


Other:
Push-pull shifter cables
TurboXS RFL BOV
Grainger valve boost controller
AEM wideband O2 gauge
Autometer Cobalt electronic vac/boost gauge (aux 3-bar MAP)


Current owner wants to know how much the boost can be turned up....Since he has put a solenoid in to power the fuel pump, the A/F ratio at WOT seems to be good (high 11s to 12.0 @ WOT). I told him he might well have to look into a higher octane fuel to play safely. How much boost is this combo capable of and can it approach 500 WHP or are we just dreaming?

[iTurbo]

I suppose it goes without saying that a fuel injector upgrade will be needed to support our hopes of the 450-500 HP mark...

[Ondonti]

Pump gas with no alky injection and no actual control of tune will limit the setup. You would have to coordinate with Cindy for info on the stage IV timing vs what boost and octane the car is running. That and I think some of those ecu's are made customer dependent so they are not necessarily the same as others of the same stage.

I would be running richer on pump gas as the boost is getting up there.

[tryingbe]

Are you willing to go E85?

[iTurbo]

Well, E85 is now available locally. But we are VERY limited on tuning here. Other than base FPR settings and choice of octane...not much we are able to do at this point. This car is absolutely ready to run E85 though. Had that in mind when I built the fuel system..

[DoubleD]

I am getting close to having my car on the road. I also have a well built car ready to make some serious power. I can tell you that with those injectors you are limited to 315whp on pump, thats all the injectors have in them. You could add alcohol or possibly go the route I am on. Same mods except I have a HE341, 75 lb injectors, 3" CAI in front grille, and the Shel-game flashable SBECII. I am hoping to know soon what the T3 can do on pump alone, no one has really pushed it using a tuneable ecu yet, I think I may be the first. Goal is 400+ at the wheels this year, the stock rods don't appreciate much over 400 as I have been told.

[2.216VTurbo]

I would venture that you will be about here+ another 50WHP because my BOV was leaking and I didn't know it Very similar set up tho...

[86Shelby]

That combo is very similar to what my R/T has been in the past. I'm sure the cal is a bit different than one of Cindy's made back in 2004 like mine is and I had a different turbine housing & downpipe.

20 psi was no problem on 91 octane. 22psi was running on the threshhold of knock; anything more required a splash of 100 octane from the Harley dealership.

Going off memory, here are some rough dyno numbers that I got over a span of several years with a combo much like the one above.
17psi gave 225 whp on a mustang dyno known for reading a bit low. I still have reservations about that number being accurate, but it is what it is. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...yno-bet-thread

22 psi gave 321/326 whp on a dynojet. Good for consistant 8.1-8.2 @ 85 in the 1/8th. More info from the slip is on the turbo mopar times page. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...l=1#post849140

26psi gave 368/356 whp/tq on the same dynojet. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...l=1#post992300

[Pat]

22 psi gave 321/326 whp on a dynojet. Good for consistant 8.1-8.2 @ 85 in the 1/8th. More info from the slip is on the turbo mopar times page. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...l=1#post849140

26psi gave 368/356 whp/tq on the same dynojet. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...l=1#post992300

These numbers jive with what my old R/T did with a similar set up and a FWD cal from around the same time period. My car put down 350 something (354?) whp and just under 340 wtq at 24 psi with a gallon or two of race fuel in it to keep it from knocking.

[rx2mazda]

Same here, you should be putting down mid 300whp #s with that setup. I put down 377whp on a similar set-up + holset and meth.

[tryingbe]

In my opinion, your to do list should be:

#1. Learn how to your own tune. Get the Ostrich or a Flashable SBEC. Thanks to ShelGame and Wowzer, tuning is so much easier than D-Cal and Chem days. You'll be so glad once you get the hang of it.

#2. Get ride of that tiny ATP -6AN fuel filter.
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=FUL

Buy this and install it.

http://store.034motorsport.com/6an-f...mbo-20921.html

If the ATP filter is anything like the purple filter that came with the car, it's a single layer of wire mesh, that can fail or get clogged.



#3. Upgrade the fuel pump wiring to 10 gauge and run its own relay. More voltage to the pump is more flow, why wouldn't anyone want that? Also, test your fuel pump voltage underboost and DO NOT ASSUME anything.

#4. If you're going to run E85 and run 20+psi, I would upgrade the 255lph pump. Knowing what I know after LOTS of trial and error with AJ's 2.4 DOHC running E85. My conclusion is go bigger with fuel parts. Bigger fuel pump, bigger injectors, bigger fuel filter, bigger 10gauge wires with its own relay, and change the fuel filter often. Eliminate any possibilities of running lean. E85 uses 30-40% more volume than 91oct, but the advantage is, you can add a LOT of timing and make a LOT of power, even at the same boost.

#5. Upgrade the injectors if you're going over 300hp, and go BIG. Master #1 so you can self adjust to whatever injectors you have. It is possible to use 1200cc injectors on a daily driver.

#6. Assume NOTHING. Always test the parts and make sure they work right. Test for boost leaks, test fuel pump for volume, test voltage at fuel pump, check plugs gap, etc.

[iTurbo]

Thanks for the replies and thanks for the ideas Harry!^^

1. I am pretty much clueless when it comes to REAL tuning... I have so much to learn... but I also know there are a ton of resources out there now.

2. Yup, the ATP filter we are running is exactly the one that you linked to out of the ATP catalog. It is probably the exact same as the purple one you posted a picture of. I will look into the larger filter you suggest (only $30!). But I'd have to relocate it back under the car which is not a big deal.

3. Fuel pump wiring upgrade has been done. But checking the voltage while under boost is a damn good idea...

4. I think we've got most of the hard work done on the fuel system that it wouldn't be too bad to convert the car over to E85 at this point. Thankfully it's FINALLY available locally too. Is there an in-tank pump that will work with E85, provide additional flow, and fit just like the in-tank Walbro 255 ltr/hr?

5. We are looking into an injector upgrade anyway at this point...so I will keep that in mind.

6. I know what you mean. The current owner let me drive the car after he set the boost controller at 20 psi. I just about had a panic attack after seeing the WBO2 gauge hitting upwards of 13.0 A/F ratio at WOT. Right after that I told him not to do any WOT blasts until after the fuel pump rewire was done...and that seemed to fix it right up. This car is a work-in-progress, but damn it's been fun too!

[tryingbe]

1. Download MPtune and calibration, start playing with it sooner rather than later.

2. Easy.


4. I like DW300, http://www.deatschwerks.com/products...s/dw300-detail
3 year no fault warranty.

Follow AJ's install pics. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...and-non-L-body
Though, you might have to get creative to install it for a 90+ car.

[Kryp2nitE]

In my opinion, your to do list should be:

#1. Learn how to your own tune. Get the Ostrich or a Flashable SBEC. Thanks to ShelGame and Wowzer, tuning is so much easier than D-Cal and Chem days. You'll be so glad once you get the hang of it.

#5. Upgrade the injectors if you're going over 300hp, and go BIG. Master #1 so you can self adjust to whatever injectors you have. It is possible to use 1200cc injectors on a daily driver.

When I talked to Shel game last, he said 72's were the biggest he could think of anyone using his cal's. What are you doing using to control a 1200cc injector?

[tryingbe]

When I talked to Shel game last, he said 72's were the biggest he could think of anyone using his cal's. What are you doing using to control a 1200cc injector?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Shelgame wouldn't know all the different way people are using the turbonator calibrations.

I've been using 83lbs injectors for more than 3 years with the LM tune. 8valve with 2.5L. 14.2 at 102.xx is the fastest time and trap.

AJ's 2.4L van been using 65 lbs injectors, then 96lbs injectors, and now 120lbs injectors with SMEC tune. Tuned for both 91 and E85 on separate bin files. 13.3 at 102.xx so far and 104.xx is the highest trap speed, I believe.



Here the older MPtuner, but you get the idea.

[Aries_Turbo]

i think larry jolieffe (sp?) 4sfed4 got around 420whp with a 50 trim pushing 25+ on top of loads of alky. that was early 2000's