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Thread: Big Single Build

  1. #21
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundance 6g72 View Post
    Im not sure if it was covered yet but what will you be going with for valve springs, locks, and retainers?

    Also, glad to see the knock sensor. You seem to be more than capable but if you need help with a basemap and other megasquirt related settings, feel free to ask. Plenty of us are running an MSII
    For now I am sticking with stock valve train, but cams will be 264/264. If you have a basemap for the MSII, that would be super helpful, I am trying to get all of the settings configured, I have been playing with it a little bit with the MegaStim, but there are settings that aren't covered in a lot of detail for the 6G72 outside of the timing.

  2. #22
    turbo addict
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    Re: Big Single Build

    That is a strange deal with the head studs. They should come with the nuts/washers (if there are washers). I can't say for certain because I haven't seen the raw data, but it's been said a few times that the factory bolts are better than the ARP's. It might be the main cap cradle bolts...I can't honestly remember. Brent I think knows the deal with that.

  3. #23
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Ill put something together and send it to you over the weekend.

    If you have not read about it yet, i recommend you do. We have been using valve springs from a dodge 3.3L and retainers/locks for an LS1. That combo seems to work much better than stock while being very cheep (under $50 for me)

  4. #24
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    That is a strange deal with the head studs. They should come with the nuts/washers (if there are washers). I can't say for certain because I haven't seen the raw data, but it's been said a few times that the factory bolts are better than the ARP's. It might be the main cap cradle bolts...I can't honestly remember. Brent I think knows the deal with that.
    They do come with the hardware

    The ARP studs can handle up to 200,000 PSI, not sure what the specs are on the stock setup, but I am assured they are much stronger than the stockers. And apparently the machinist/builder hadn't installed the remaining 4 head studs because the dowel pins were missing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundance 6g72 View Post
    Ill put something together and send it to you over the weekend.

    If you have not read about it yet, i recommend you do. We have been using valve springs from a dodge 3.3L and retainers/locks for an LS1. That combo seems to work much better than stock while being very cheep (under $50 for me)
    I will have to do a search on the forums here and read about it. Sounds like an inexpensive insurance policy that I will be considering.

  5. #25
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Here's some better pictures of the engine. It looks like the builder took a lot out of the crankshaft and it also looks like he drilled too close to another hold on the crankshaft, see if you can spot it.





  6. #26
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Most of us cheep guys will agree that stock bolts are plenty strong for most peoples goals. I know some Russian 3s car made over 1000awhp with stock headbolts. If you have the money, I guess I see no reason to not go with ARP.

  7. #27
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    Re: Big Single Build

    The holes in the counterweight of the crank are no biggie. Yeah, it looks strange, but it shouldn't cause any issues as they aren't deep enough to get into an oil galley.

    If they balanced it with bob weights (they should have), then the new rods/pistons are quite a bit lighter than the OEM ones. That's part of the reason for the amount of weight taken out.

  8. #28
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    Re: Big Single Build

    These are the project files for my engine. I included two folders; 2012 and 2013.

    2012
    - E85
    - Stock Cam
    - Custom hear exhaust header
    - ported Chrysler upper intake with half inch spacers.
    - 2.5inch downpipe with 3inch exhaust
    - lots of timing at 15psi (I think more than necessary). This was the difference between 300hp and 315hp however.
    - BIG intercooler (3inch piping)
    - AFR was 12.5-11ish, cant remember.
    - 46 (or 48) lb injectors at stock fuel pressure (whatever that is)
    - walbro 255 with stock lines
    - 3.3 valve springs and LS1 retainers and locks?
    - 1993 pistons (slightly lower compression)

    2013
    - 270 degree cams offered by 'turbovanman'
    - E85
    - timing relaxed a bit for safety concerns.
    - fuel map and timing map extended to fit more boost (I only ran 8psi because my injectors were too small to run anything more with the big cams)
    - everything else the same.

    The tune should not just be uploaded to your ECU. Firmware differences will come into play and mess things up. Its best to copy settings over setting by setting and then import the fuel/timing/afr maps over if you want. Anyone can download these, im all about open source.

    *Disclaimer* I started tuning this thing at age 18 knowing absolutely nothing. Im 21 now and still have much to learn about tuning so dont think his was professionally done. My tunes got me to school and work for 2-3 years so id say I did a decent job. Use at own risk

    link is to my dropbox, it should work https://www.dropbox.com/s/6y607qimo0...6g72_Tunes.zip



    edit: also note that I use e85. You can get pretty close to 93 octane numbers by pulling exactly 30% of the fuel from the fuel map (thats how I did it) or you can mess with the "required fuel" settings to pull 30% fuel. I found that taking 30% from the fuel map was the easiest because I could import an export the correct map for whatever fuel I was running that week. Also note, the timing for e85 is much more aggressive above 100kpa than I would have ran with e85. Im not sure how much timing I pulled when running 93oct, use at your own risk. The meth should help a ton as you know.

  9. #29
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundance 6g72 View Post
    These are the project files for my engine. I included two folders; 2012 and 2013.

    2012
    - E85
    - Stock Cam
    - Custom hear exhaust header
    - ported Chrysler upper intake with half inch spacers.
    - 2.5inch downpipe with 3inch exhaust
    - lots of timing at 15psi (I think more than necessary). This was the difference between 300hp and 315hp however.
    - BIG intercooler (3inch piping)
    - AFR was 12.5-11ish, cant remember.
    - 46 (or 48) lb injectors at stock fuel pressure (whatever that is)
    - walbro 255 with stock lines
    - 3.3 valve springs and LS1 retainers and locks?
    - 1993 pistons (slightly lower compression)

    2013
    - 270 degree cams offered by 'turbovanman'
    - E85
    - timing relaxed a bit for safety concerns.
    - fuel map and timing map extended to fit more boost (I only ran 8psi because my injectors were too small to run anything more with the big cams)
    - everything else the same.

    The tune should not just be uploaded to your ECU. Firmware differences will come into play and mess things up. Its best to copy settings over setting by setting and then import the fuel/timing/afr maps over if you want. Anyone can download these, im all about open source.

    *Disclaimer* I started tuning this thing at age 18 knowing absolutely nothing. Im 21 now and still have much to learn about tuning so dont think his was professionally done. My tunes got me to school and work for 2-3 years so id say I did a decent job. Use at own risk

    link is to my dropbox, it should work https://www.dropbox.com/s/6y607qimo0...6g72_Tunes.zip



    edit: also note that I use e85. You can get pretty close to 93 octane numbers by pulling exactly 30% of the fuel from the fuel map (thats how I did it) or you can mess with the "required fuel" settings to pull 30% fuel. I found that taking 30% from the fuel map was the easiest because I could import an export the correct map for whatever fuel I was running that week. Also note, the timing for e85 is much more aggressive above 100kpa than I would have ran with e85. Im not sure how much timing I pulled when running 93oct, use at your own risk. The meth should help a ton as you know.
    Thanks for sharing this. I was following your build on Xceedspeed for awhile and then I got banned and didnt come back because I didn't feel like being involved in any more drama.

    I know that the stock head bolts are pretty beefy and would probably work, however, I am building this with reliability in mind as it's going to be a track car and I want it to be reliable. I want to build it once and that's it for awhile, it will be abused a lot. That is why I am running only wastegate boost (no fancy boost control necessary here) and I want a solid static tune for each wastegate.

  10. #30
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor Ondonti's Avatar
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Stock bolts are great and the only real upgrades are tool steel studs (A1 custom made and also ARP supposedly has an option, arp2000 is not tool steel). Already purchased so whatever. I reuse stock headbolts and don't look back :P I still don't know any reliable torque specs for ARP2000 with moly lube on a 6g72. Call Ray because there is probably a better # then whatever the shop or you might come up with.

    I think a balanced crank goes a long way for protecting the bearings. My built block in storage had weight added to the crank because I had reconditioned stock rods and much heavier giant oversize pistons. 6g72's seem to have harmonic problems at high HP. Eventually your main bearings become unhappy as hp rises and tune and/or balance is off.
    Brent
    GREAT DEPRESSION RACING
    1992 Duster 3.0 The Junkyard- Now - Megasquirt II/Extra. OEM 10:1 3.0 + funny business
    - Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 Stock 3.0 Junk Motor - 516whp 519wtq 20psi 91 oct built 3.0 stock n/a computer
    1994 Spirit 3.0 - 12.3@113 15 psi - Daily Holset He341 280whp 304ft/lb @10psi
    1994 Spirit 3.0 a670 - Wife's - Disassembled
    1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE
    1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE
    1994 Duster 3.0 A543
    1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TII non IC, T1 31TH
    1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver, 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts, 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag
    1998 Dodge 12v Cummins 47re 4x4 4dr longbed. No fuel plate. Mack plug, AFC & Spring mods. Boost elbow.

  11. #31
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Your cams sound like they are probably based off mine

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Rob M.
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    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  12. #32
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Thanks for putting the cam card out there, that will be helpful when I degree the cams on the bench.

    I have an interesting direction with the car, I hope you all can appreciate this direction.

    I have always had the thought in my head "Wouldn't it be nice to just pull a plug on the engine harness and yank the engine with all of the sensors, senders, etc still connected to the components on the engine?" Well, that will now be a reality.

    I am working with Milspec connectors. I will have a firewall mounted Milspec receptacle that leads to the ECU. The harness coming from the engine will be a Milspec and be connected to all of the sensors. The idea is connect all of the sensors, senders, etc to the engine and then plug it into the firewall. When I want to yank the engine, then I just yank the single connector then yank the engine.

    Everything came today, so I will be messing around with the connector and seeing how the pins work, etc.

    I am also replacing all of the basic Distribution fuses in the car with push button circuit breakers in a custom panel in the center console area. No more chasing fuses! I am going to finally begin working on the center dash. I already have gauges built to slide in a pocket, but I will need to build the center dash out.

  13. #33
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    Re: Big Single Build

    In retrospect, you probably could have used one or two of these - http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/w...kit-p-364.html

    Otherwise, that sounds like a nice setup you have going with your wiring. I ended up leaving the harness integral to the body so =shrug=. hopefully I'm not pulling my motor THAT often!

  14. #34
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow24 View Post
    In retrospect, you probably could have used one or two of these - http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/w...kit-p-364.html

    Otherwise, that sounds like a nice setup you have going with your wiring. I ended up leaving the harness integral to the body so =shrug=. hopefully I'm not pulling my motor THAT often!
    I am not touching the harnesses for the body like the lighting and such, just the engine harness is being modified.

  15. #35
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    Re: Big Single Build

    I get the engine tonight, hopefully the cams drop in the heads with the dissimilar camshaft hardware and may not need to be line bored.

  16. #36
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    Re: Big Single Build

    Shortblock and heads are back. Now it's time for assembly!

    Oh, and we dropped the cams in the new heads and put the camshaft sliders, rockers, caps on and tested the camshaft rotation. Camshafts rotated with no effort at all even with the bolts tightened down so no need to line bore the heads.

  17. #37
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    Re: Big Single Build

    From what I remember, that sounds about right. Cant wait to see this thing getting results.

  18. #38
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    Re: Big Single Build

    I've had the idea of simplifying the engine harness connection for a long time as well. A few people have pulled it off, but I personally think the best was how DJ did it. I'm using his effort as an inspiration/template for what I am going to do. The sensors and all are pretty easy. The problem is the alternator and starter. They require large gauge wires and plugs. Most quick connectors that have that many pins don't have room for that large wire. I'm going to end up with 2, possibly 3 large connectors to accomplish it, mostly because I had to find a way to be able to incorporate those large wires.

    I'm very interested to see what you come up with. Please post pictures when you get a chance.

  19. #39
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    Re: Big Single Build

    OK here we go. So I had a small hangup with a cylinder head which I will show for the sake of showing that I am human.

    So here we go:

    Here's the head for the back side:

    Here's some of the grease supplied with the camshafts:


    Here's the head that needs some additional work. Note the slider spring missing. I also did not put the lifters in just yet:

    Let's work on the front head:

    Greased, installed lifters, torqued to spec added loctite red to cam bolt, installed camshaft seal/cap.

    I had to tap a few of the rockers to align them on the valve springs.
    Here's the cylinder head side:


    Removed the old distributor seal and installed new seal:


    I then put a large amount of assembly lube on the distributor drive:


    Already sent an email out to Cherry Hill for rocker arm spring sliders and I needed a camshaft seal/cap as well.

  20. #40
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    Re: Big Single Build

    I have springs if you need one, just let me know.

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