T/U cam spec's

[jeff1234]

Does anyone have a spec sheet for the Turbo's Unleashed R-4 camshaft. I never received a cam card when I bought it from Chris and I was wondering if anyone else had purchase one and got a card with it. This cam grind disappeared from the line up a couple years back.

[168glhs1986]

Cam Cards, lol. We were just having this discussion today actually. Not specifically with ANY vendor just our club in general.

You'd think it was NSA or perhaps NASA secret launch codes. Knowing exactly what you have is over rated I guess .... take the leap of faith

[jeff1234]

Bwahahahahahahahahah, now that's funny. I have degreed mine so I have those figures. It would be nice to verify those against the cam card, wouldn't it? Here is what I recorded. Intake centerline 114 degree's... Exhaust centerline 263 degree's Intake lift .497 Exhaust lift .475. Hah Ha, I know, maybe Snowden has the real numbers, think he's online?
jeff

[jeff1234]

Have any of you ever run this cam? If you have did you have problems with detonation?

[168glhs1986]

I have a new grind R1 + in the GLHS and love it. No experience with R4.

[4 l-bodies]

Bwahahahahahahahahah, now that's funny. I have degreed mine so I have those figures. It would be nice to verify those against the cam card, wouldn't it? Here is what I recorded. Intake centerline 114 degree's... Exhaust centerline 263 degree's Intake lift .497 Exhaust lift .475. Hah Ha, I know, maybe Snowden has the real numbers, think he's online?
jeff

Jeff, I applaud you for actually degreeing your cam in! Your part of the 2% or less that actually do. The exhaust centerline should be somewhere around 109-116. Then adding the intake and exhaust centerline and dividing by 2 you get your LSA (lobe separation angle).
Yeah, I refuse to buy any camshafts without a cam card. These cam grinders think it is such a closely guarded secret. In less than 2 minutes, you have any specs you could possibly want after placing it on Cam-Pro or Cam Dr. What a joke. Even had one cam grinder passing off slider cam blanks as roller cam blanks to one of our vendors a while back.
Just had this discussion tonight with a friend of mine. I really find it hard to believe that our vendors can even try to sell these camshafts without any useful specs. Buy this one, cause my cam grinder said it should work real good in your (FILL IN THE BLANK) car. Put it in straight up. Straight up in relation to what? Most of us wouldn't buy a turbo without knowing what it's specs are, so why would we buy a camshaft without that same knowledge?
The cam grinder know virtually nothing about our motors, and am willing to bet they receive practically no feedback on their camshaft performance. If it works okay in turbo Buicks and turbo Fords then it will be assume in our cars right?
Todd

[4 l-bodies]

I have a new grind R1 + in the GLHS and love it. No experience with R4.

Is that anything like a S1, S2, S2+, S3, or F2, F3, F4, S-60 roller?
Todd

[Chris W]

Jeff, I applaud you for actually degreeing your cam in! Your part of the 2% or less that actually do. The exhaust centerline should be somewhere around 109-116. Then adding the intake and exhaust centerline and dividing by 2 you get your LSA (lobe separation angle).
Yeah, I refuse to buy any camshafts without a cam card. These cam grinders think it is such a closely guarded secret. In less than 2 minutes, you have any specs you could possibly want after placing it on Cam-Pro or Cam Dr. What a joke. Even had one cam grinder passing off slider cam blanks as roller cam blanks to one of our vendors a while back.
Just had this discussion tonight with a friend of mine. I really find it hard to believe that our vendors can even try to sell these camshafts without any useful specs. Buy this one, cause my cam grinder said it should work real good in your (FILL IN THE BLANK) car. Put it in straight up. Straight up in relation to what? Most of us wouldn't buy a turbo without knowing what it's specs are, so why would we buy a camshaft without that same knowledge?
The cam grinder know virtually nothing about our motors, and am willing to bet they receive practically no feedback on their camshaft performance. If it works okay in turbo Buicks and turbo Fords then it will be assume in our cars right?
Todd

The cam designer (NicKuehn@TAFT) has been in the Turbo-Mopar community for as long as I can remember. He initially sold his products direct to customers until he paired up with FWDP in later years. Once he had a falling out with Cindy he approached us with an Newer profile that he wanted us to market for him (TU's "R-Series"). Eventually Nic's inventory was depleted and we took them off our site. We provided you with all the information we had regarding specs as well as Nic's email address in case there were still unanswered questions. As far as I know Nic's designs were made and tested specifically for Turbo-Mopar applications, not Ford or Buick. I was told the "R-4" you purchased was an improved version of FWD's F-4 and/or S-4 camshaft. Were you unable to contact Nic for any of the degreeing information you needed?

Chris-TU

[Shadow]

Jeff, I applaud you for actually degreeing your cam in! Your part of the 2% or less that actually do. The exhaust centerline should be somewhere around 109-116. Then adding the intake and exhaust centerline and dividing by 2 you get your LSA (lobe separation angle).
Yeah, I refuse to buy any camshafts without a cam card. These cam grinders think it is such a closely guarded secret. In less than 2 minutes, you have any specs you could possibly want after placing it on Cam-Pro or Cam Dr. What a joke. Even had one cam grinder passing off slider cam blanks as roller cam blanks to one of our vendors a while back.
Just had this discussion tonight with a friend of mine. I really find it hard to believe that our vendors can even try to sell these camshafts without any useful specs. Buy this one, cause my cam grinder said it should work real good in your (FILL IN THE BLANK) car. Put it in straight up. Straight up in relation to what? Most of us wouldn't buy a turbo without knowing what it's specs are, so why would we buy a camshaft without that same knowledge?
The cam grinder know virtually nothing about our motors, and am willing to bet they receive practically no feedback on their camshaft performance. If it works okay in turbo Buicks and turbo Fords then it will be assume in our cars right?
Todd

Ha ha, well said my friend. This is one of the reasons I never went away from the stock turbo roller for so long. Fortunately for me, I Paid attention to individuals who tested All of these cams and then (on good advise) chose the F4 as the proven performer.

I proceeded to let the community know how well it worked, regardless of "lack of specs". Strange thing about this community, even when they get the goods, right from the horses mouth, they still go their merry way as if there is some higher level of assurance they're waiting for! lol

[4 l-bodies]

The cam designer (NicKuehn@TAFT) has been in the Turbo-Mopar community for as long as I can remember. He initially sold his products direct to customers until he paired up with FWDP in later years. Once he had a falling out with Cindy he approached us with an Newer profile that he wanted us to market for him (TU's "R-Series"). Eventually Nic's inventory was depleted and we took them off our site. We provided you with all the information we had regarding specs as well as Nic's email address in case there were still unanswered questions. As far as I know Nic's designs were made and tested specifically for Turbo-Mopar applications, not Ford or Buick. I was told the "R-4" you purchased was an improved version of FWD's F-4 and/or S-4 camshaft. Were you unable to contact Nic for any of the degreeing information you needed?
Chris-TU

Chris thanks for the reply. As a friend of Nic's I have email and phone #'s for him. Yes you are correct, His friend Steve C. did dyno pulls and track tests on Nic's S1, S2, and S3 camshafts. Still have the test results from SDML. Too bad it appears you can only go back to around 2007 in archives. Lots of good info lost for sure. As for all the rest of the camshaft profiles, it is no secret that they all are coming from the same cam grinder. Unfortunately, it appears he provides cam cards for no one. Like a poker hand, he holds these close to vest. It really was too bad that complete cams specs or test results weren't made available to vendors or end users, as I am sure you would have sold many more of them. IMO, not giving up that info sort of shot both the cam grinder and vendors in the foot.

I don't remember purchasing a R4 from you, but anything is possible. You might have me confused with OP (Jeff1234)? I have access to Cam-Pro cam reader and have equipment and ability to degree my own cams in, so getting that info is not an issue for me. I have never read a S3 or R4 or F4 on Cam-Pro (but I would like to) so I could make a logical choice BEFORE purchasing any of these cams.
Todd

[wallace]

Why not have a cam ground yourself? Any of the big names would provide a cam card. How do you degree the cam in without specs?

[jeff1234]

[ We provided you with all the information we had regarding specs as well as Nic's email address. ]


Chris, As I recall I did have communication by email with Nic, unfortunately I have not saved the email, it's from awhile back. At the time I recall that he provided me with no hard numbers and I seem to remember he thought the centerline was in ---degree's. (I cannot remember what he said so I am not going to quote him.) I do remember he wasn't absolutely sure of the number, he told me what he thought it was. I don't believe he was being elusive, it sounded like he really wasn't sure about it. That was not what I needed. Your website at the time had intake and exhaust lift and what looked like advertised duration for each. That was how I selected the cam. That information was just about completely useless because it didn't state whether the numbers were obtained at .005 or .050 lift and had no intake centerline information. Without that information the numbers are out in la la land somewhere, impossible to correctly degree the cam on the grinders centerline.
Todd, unfortunately I didn't follow through all the way on my measurements. I should have picked a starting lift point for each lobe and recorded those numbers. There is no excuse for that, my bad, to much of a hurry. Never, Never, as an engine builder pass up the opportunity to obtain and record all pertinent numbers for your particular build, including cam spec's if you do not have them.
Jeff

[jeff1234]

Todd, I must have done something wrong when obtaining the exhaust centerline. 263 is what I got, I tried subtracting 180 from it and dividing it by two and neither of those methods resulted in a number near yours. Part of the reason I was looking for the numbers is the detonation problem I've had since day one of initially putting the engine together. I wondered if a narrow overlap could allow detonation to start in some way. My engine machinist builds tractor pullers and has a ton of experience with turbo's and claimed that advancing my cam could cause detonation. If it is the cam I would change it over to stock. I have written to Rob and he said I should be able to use my stock 89 roller with his cal if necessary.
jeff

[wallace]

Is this a regrind or a billet cam?

[4 l-bodies]

Why not have a cam ground yourself? Any of the big names would provide a cam card. How do you degree the cam in without specs?

Well for starters, procuring roller cam blanks. Colt Cams seems to have access to them, but others don't. Could go with a "true" billet camshaft, as opposed to what vendors are calling their "billet" option. As previously stated their "billet" is actually just a new core from a hardened CAST roller cam blank. The only difference between their reginds and so-called billet option is the base circle is stock 1.400" as opposed to a decreased base circle.
Owner of Colt Cams said custom grind is available, but would not commit to cost aside from saying it will be much more expensive. Either option is spending a lot of money on a grind that may or may not work well for a given application.
As far as degreeing the cam card in without cam specs... that is EXACTLY my point. I end up having to run camshafts ground from Colt Cams on a Cam-Pro (another expense) because no cam card is supplied. Then when I do get camshaft run on Cam-Pro, many times is no where near what was advertised, or expected.
Todd

[wallace]

I see. I didn't realize the core situation. So if you purchase a new or regrind from any of our vendors you don't get specs? To the OP if yours is a regrind is it possible that the cam used was a square tooth and you're using a round tooth gear or vice versa? Heck i guess you could have that same issue with a new cam blank as well.

[jeff1234]

Todd, I was able to understand what I did wrong by looking at the F-4 numbers and saw how you arrived at the exhaust centerline. This is what I came up with for the F-4, which is NOT the R-4 which might have different intake and exhaust centerlines. The F-4 appears to have 116 Degree's CL for both int. and Exh. according to what I read on FWD's site. Intake opens, 25 degree's BTDC and closes 52 degree's ABDC. The exhaust opens 22 degree's ATDC and closes 118 degree's ABDC. 47 degree's overlap. Does this look right to you?

[Chris W]

[ We provided you with all the information we had regarding specs as well as Nic's email address. ]


Chris, As I recall I did have communication by email with Nic, unfortunately I have not saved the email, it's from awhile back. At the time I recall that he provided me with no hard numbers and I seem to remember he thought the centerline was in ---degree's. (I cannot remember what he said so I am not going to quote him.) I do remember he wasn't absolutely sure of the number, he told me what he thought it was. I don't believe he was being elusive, it sounded like he really wasn't sure about it. That was not what I needed. Your website at the time had intake and exhaust lift and what looked like advertised duration for each. That was how I selected the cam. That information was just about completely useless because it didn't state whether the numbers were obtained at .005 or .050 lift and had no intake centerline information. Without that information the numbers are out in la la land somewhere, impossible to correctly degree the cam on the grinders centerline.
Todd, unfortunately I didn't follow through all the way on my measurements. I should have picked a starting lift point for each lobe and recorded those numbers. There is no excuse for that, my bad, to much of a hurry. Never, Never, as an engine builder pass up the opportunity to obtain and record all pertinent numbers for your particular build, including cam spec's if you do not have them.
Jeff

Hey Jeff,

Looking through my archives I located your emails discussing your camshaft. If it would be okay with you I can post your email exchange between Nic, Todd and yourself here, or, I can send it in a PM. Your choice.

Let me know,

Todd,

The statements in my first post were not directed to you as much as they were to Jeff. Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks,

Chris-TU

[4 l-bodies]

Todd, I was able to understand what I did wrong by looking at the F-4 numbers and saw how you arrived at the exhaust centerline. This is what I came up with for the F-4, which is NOT the R-4 which might have different intake and exhaust centerlines. The F-4 appears to have 116 Degree's CL for both int. and Exh. according to what I read on FWD's site. Intake opens, 25 degree's BTDC and closes 52 degree's ABDC. The exhaust opens 22 degree's ATDC and closes 118 degree's ABDC. 47 degree's overlap. Does this look right to you?

Jeff, I'm a bit confused now. Your saying you have a FWDP F4 and not a TU R4? If I'm reading FWDP site correctly F4 has only around .470 valve lift, but you measured .497/.475 lift?
Something is wrong with the exhaust #'s. Open should be around 40-70 BBDC and closed somewhere near TDC depending on where measurements are taken (ie; .006 or .050. It looks like the measurements you gave on the intake side (^^^ in post 17) are .006.
BTW I did put a FWDP F3 on the Cam-Pro for a friend because no cam card was included (what a shock, huh). Center line was 114 (115 listed in catalog). Duration was correct (advertised) on exhaust 262, but way off on intake 253.5 actual and advertised as 272 @.006. Lift was also correct within .006 at .466. So the intake duration was closer to a F1 cam (at least at .006). Can't quite grasp why intake duration is so far off specs listed on catalog? I guess that is my point about checking these cams out on a Cam-Pro prior to install.
I remember reading recently B. Slowe was having some issues with Mike W's motor. It was traced back to a camshaft made incorrectly. One cylinder was weak. Not sure who's it was, doesn't really matter where it was bought. My point is, yeah something could be wrong with your camshaft. If you don't have a machine shop that has a Cam-Pro machine near you, I could get yours run at machine shop that does all mine. They usually charge around $30-40. Plus shipping two ways. You have been chasin your tail for a while now with this detonation issue. Just offering you some options. I don't install any camshaft in any motor I build without degreeing them in and running it on Cam-Pro for exactly the reasons we are talking about.
Todd

[168glhs1986]

Todd, I must have done something wrong when obtaining the exhaust centerline. 263 is what I got, I tried subtracting 180 from it and dividing it by two and neither of those methods resulted in a number near yours. Part of the reason I was looking for the numbers is the detonation problem I've had since day one of initially putting the engine together. I wondered if a narrow overlap could allow detonation to start in some way. My engine machinist builds tractor pullers and has a ton of experience with turbo's and claimed that advancing my cam could cause detonation. If it is the cam I would change it over to stock. I have written to Rob and he said I should be able to use my stock 89 roller with his cal if necessary.
jeff

^^ What Todd said ^^

Jeff this may be off base but....we installed a different cam in my new build at first....was detonating all over the place and couldn't figure it out....took a compression test and noticed 1 cylinder was way down....leak down proved good. Took out the cam and replaced it with a stocker and the detonation went away. Turns out it was a BAD CAM from a brand new blank. So the cam may be bad.