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Thread: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

  1. #201
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Car idles great at 900 rpm, noticed I was having some issues coming off idle. I added some fuel right off of idle and added 2 degrees of timing to idle. Car comes off idle better than stock now, I can roll into the throttle and the power delivery is relatively smooth. 2+ years of tuning on E85 and I have a rock solid street tune. Just gotta get a new BOV so it spools quicker (can you say boost leaks) and goes over 31 PSI.

  2. #202
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Great to hear. I'm slowly getting the hang of tuning. Although I'm still having issues idling after initial start. By initial start I mean anytime I start the car, doesn't seem to matter if the engine is cold or hot. The car will die if I don't play with the throttle for a bit. Seems like I have to depress the throttle a bit under cranking, hold for a bit to keep the rpm around 1k. Then I slowly let off the throttle until the car almost dies and then it's like something picks it up, and then it idles fine after that (at least until the next restart) Doesn't seem like it's rich or lean issue either as my wideband will be at 10 on a cold start and it does the same thing as 13 - 14 on a warm start.

    Just to recap I started with the stock tune, scaled for +40's, scaled for 3-bar, adjusted the WOT and PT density tables to 8529 as suggested by Rob. I also copied the spark tables from the +40 tune. Once the car does decide to idle, it runs great, still a little rich on WOT, but I have yet to do any data logging on any WOT runs yet.

    Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to try to get my car on idle.

    Any help is appreciated.

    I'm not sure if I'm thinking in the right direction, but to me, almost seems like the AIS might be sticking. Currently not showing any codes.

  3. #203
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    Car idles great at 900 rpm, noticed I was having some issues coming off idle. I added some fuel right off of idle and added 2 degrees of timing to idle. Car comes off idle better than stock now, I can roll into the throttle and the power delivery is relatively smooth. 2+ years of tuning on E85 and I have a rock solid street tune. Just gotta get a new BOV so it spools quicker (can you say boost leaks) and goes over 31 PSI.
    What tables are you changing?

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo_III View Post
    Great to hear. I'm slowly getting the hang of tuning. Although I'm still having issues idling after initial start. By initial start I mean anytime I start the car, doesn't seem to matter if the engine is cold or hot. The car will die if I don't play with the throttle for a bit. Seems like I have to depress the throttle a bit under cranking, hold for a bit to keep the rpm around 1k. Then I slowly let off the throttle until the car almost dies and then it's like something picks it up, and then it idles fine after that (at least until the next restart) Doesn't seem like it's rich or lean issue either as my wideband will be at 10 on a cold start and it does the same thing as 13 - 14 on a warm start.

    Just to recap I started with the stock tune, scaled for +40's, scaled for 3-bar, adjusted the WOT and PT density tables to 8529 as suggested by Rob. I also copied the spark tables from the +40 tune. Once the car does decide to idle, it runs great, still a little rich on WOT, but I have yet to do any data logging on any WOT runs yet.

    Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to try to get my car on idle.

    Any help is appreciated.

    I'm not sure if I'm thinking in the right direction, but to me, almost seems like the AIS might be sticking. Currently not showing any codes.
    See, the one I did, I didn't touch the density tables at all. Just changed the 3d tables and the timing.

    How long does it take when you start it to get it to idle? Is it rich or lean when it's not working right?
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  4. #204
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    What tables are you changing?



    See, the one I did, I didn't touch the density tables at all. Just changed the 3d tables and the timing.

    How long does it take when you start it to get it to idle? Is it rich or lean when it's not working right?
    The A/F will show rich, about 10, on a cold start. On most warm to operating temperature starts it's anywhere from 13 - 15. As for how long it takes to get it to idle, typically maybe 10 to 15 seconds of blipping the throttle a bit, it's really sporadic in either cold start or a warm start. Like last night on the way home, coolant temp showed just over 100F before starting, stayed idling within 5 seconds of blipping the throttle, A/F was rich at 10 on initial start.

    I forgot to mention, I also adjusted the cold start enrichment tables (A and C) slightly hoping to remove a bit of fuel. Didn't seem to make any difference.

    Interesting that you didn't touch the density factors at all. What exactly did you adjust for the 3D tables? I haven't messed with them yet.

  5. #205
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Just changed them up or down in the areas that it needed. Basically you can think of them as 3d pumping efficiency tables. Part Throttle Lo Map is where you'd adjust the idle fueling, since TIII doesn't have a FuelBaseline table. Find the -psi your car idles at and lower the number in the boxes corresponding to idle rpms (IE 1k and lower).

    Curve A cold enrichment is active right as it starts and usually times out into Curve C within 10-20 secs when warm, maybe longer when cold. So you're on the right path with that on cold start, probably leave C alone for now.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  6. #206
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    What tables are you changing?
    I've been modifying the 3D fuel and spark tables for part throttle hi and low map.

  7. #207
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo_III View Post
    Great to hear. I'm slowly getting the hang of tuning. Although I'm still having issues idling after initial start. By initial start I mean anytime I start the car, doesn't seem to matter if the engine is cold or hot. The car will die if I don't play with the throttle for a bit. Seems like I have to depress the throttle a bit under cranking, hold for a bit to keep the rpm around 1k. Then I slowly let off the throttle until the car almost dies and then it's like something picks it up, and then it idles fine after that (at least until the next restart) Doesn't seem like it's rich or lean issue either as my wideband will be at 10 on a cold start and it does the same thing as 13 - 14 on a warm start.

    Just to recap I started with the stock tune, scaled for +40's, scaled for 3-bar, adjusted the WOT and PT density tables to 8529 as suggested by Rob. I also copied the spark tables from the +40 tune. Once the car does decide to idle, it runs great, still a little rich on WOT, but I have yet to do any data logging on any WOT runs yet.

    Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to try to get my car on idle.

    Any help is appreciated.

    I'm not sure if I'm thinking in the right direction, but to me, almost seems like the AIS might be sticking. Currently not showing any codes.
    Can you remind me what fuel you are running? Do you have head work or cams that would cause the car to require more air than a stock TIII motor.

    On my car, I did not adjust the cold enrichment tables at all. To start with, I kept adjusting the part throttle density factor till it idled at roughly 14.7. Once there, I matched the part throttle and full throttle factors. Then I started modifying the 3D fuel tables because they are too rich down low and up top for my combination.
    E85 tuning is a different can of worms that I wont get into now.
    I can say from a cold motor it starts in less than 5 seconds, when it is hot, the starter barely turns the motor and it fires off really quick!

  8. #208
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    Can you remind me what fuel you are running? Do you have head work or cams that would cause the car to require more air than a stock TIII motor.

    On my car, I did not adjust the cold enrichment tables at all. To start with, I kept adjusting the part throttle density factor till it idled at roughly 14.7. Once there, I matched the part throttle and full throttle factors. Then I started modifying the 3D fuel tables because they are too rich down low and up top for my combination.
    E85 tuning is a different can of worms that I wont get into now.
    I can say from a cold motor it starts in less than 5 seconds, when it is hot, the starter barely turns the motor and it fires off really quick!
    Here is a list of my setup:
    -Stock head
    -Stock bottom end, rebuilt about 20000 miles ago.
    -Holset HE341 with 3" exhaust
    -MP +40 injectors
    -3 bar MAP
    -568 Trans rebuilt this year w/ Quaife LSD
    -Running '91 octane pump gas

    Yeah it's interesting, as it's only on starting that I have idling issues. Once it's warmed up and idling on it's own, it only runs rich under WOT. That's what made me think of adjusting the Cold enrichment tables. So the part throttle density factor will affect idling as well as just cruising at part throttle?

  9. #209
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo_III View Post
    Here is a list of my setup:
    -Stock head
    -Stock bottom end, rebuilt about 20000 miles ago.
    -Holset HE341 with 3" exhaust
    -MP +40 injectors
    -3 bar MAP
    -568 Trans rebuilt this year w/ Quaife LSD
    -Running '91 octane pump gas

    Yeah it's interesting, as it's only on starting that I have idling issues. Once it's warmed up and idling on it's own, it only runs rich under WOT. That's what made me think of adjusting the Cold enrichment tables. So the part throttle density factor will affect idling as well as just cruising at part throttle?
    One more question, what is your fuel pressure set at? That will also have an affect. Your setup sounds very similar to how my car use to be built. If I were you this is what I would do:

    Write down the values from DensityFactorPartThrottle and DensityFactorFullThrottle
    Open the stock tune
    Scale for +40 Injectors (52lb/hr)
    Scale for 3.0 Bar Map Sensor
    Adjust the FuelBatteryOffset for the injectors, pul the data from the +40 Tune.
    Then start the car and see where it idles for AFR
    Adjust the DensityFactorPartThrottle number. Increasing the factor with globally increase fuel and vise versa.
    Continue to adjust the value above and flash the ECU till it idles at roughly 14.7. With your build, you should not need to touch the enrichment curves.
    My pump gas tune enrichment curves are identical to the stock tune.

    This is how I started my tune, car ran decent after this, this should at least get you started.

    At this point, I would then change the value for DensityFactorFullThrottle to the written down value. At this point it should idle better and the WOT fuel will not have changed from your original tune.

    Feel free to PM me with any more questions.

  10. #210
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    One more question, what is your fuel pressure set at? That will also have an affect. Your setup sounds very similar to how my car use to be built. If I were you this is what I would do:

    Write down the values from DensityFactorPartThrottle and DensityFactorFullThrottle
    Open the stock tune
    Scale for +40 Injectors (52lb/hr)
    Scale for 3.0 Bar Map Sensor
    Adjust the FuelBatteryOffset for the injectors, pul the data from the +40 Tune.
    Then start the car and see where it idles for AFR
    Adjust the DensityFactorPartThrottle number. Increasing the factor with globally increase fuel and vise versa.
    Continue to adjust the value above and flash the ECU till it idles at roughly 14.7. With your build, you should not need to touch the enrichment curves.
    My pump gas tune enrichment curves are identical to the stock tune.

    This is how I started my tune, car ran decent after this, this should at least get you started.

    At this point, I would then change the value for DensityFactorFullThrottle to the written down value. At this point it should idle better and the WOT fuel will not have changed from your original tune.

    Feel free to PM me with any more questions.
    Fuel pressure is at 55psi. Still running the stock regulator, I had an adjustable one on there but it started leaking, so I put the stock back on for now.

  11. #211
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo_III View Post
    Fuel pressure is at 55psi. Still running the stock regulator, I had an adjustable one on there but it started leaking, so I put the stock back on for now.
    Scaling the injectors to 52 will be correct then since you are at the stock 55PSI. You have measured it at 55? Bigger injectors can make the stock regulator go wonky, I would really recommend getting an adjustable regulator on it, but you already know this.

    I made this assumption before, you do have a wide band gauge on the car right?

  12. #212
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    I ran factory 55psi also on the one I tuned. Will do the same in my Lebaron on my 2.5 TIII when I start tuning it soon. I don't like adjustable fpr's much, they don't seem to stay put well. I've only used Accufab's though.

    Wonder what the "density factor" actually means...nice to know that it does global fuel changes though.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  13. #213
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    Scaling the injectors to 52 will be correct then since you are at the stock 55PSI. You have measured it at 55? Bigger injectors can make the stock regulator go wonky, I would really recommend getting an adjustable regulator on it, but you already know this.

    I made this assumption before, you do have a wide band gauge on the car right?
    Yes I have an AEM wideband.

  14. #214
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Some +40s flow a little more than others, too. The ones I've had, scaling for 58lbs worked better.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  15. #215
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    Some +40s flow a little more than others, too. The ones I've had, scaling for 58lbs worked better.
    Good to know, I'll keep that in mind.

  16. #216
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    Re: Tuning help for a TIII using MPTune

    Well after almost 2 years, I'm resurrecting this thread. I had to fix some mechanical issues on the car, so I never got to any tuning until now. Now that the car is back together, I'm having issues with any T3 calibration I try.

    I have tried the T-T3v1.zip template from the Turbonator T3 thread here on TM and I have tried the T-T3_SBEC_v1.zip from the Turbonator Release folder on google drive. Both experience the issues below.

    I'll give details again, just so anyone reading this doesn't have to scroll up to know my setup again.

    -Stock head
    -Stock bottom end, rebuilt about 20000 miles ago.
    -Holset HE341 with 3" exhaust
    -MP +40 injectors
    -3 bar MAP
    -Adjustable Accufab FPR set @ 55psi with vac line off
    -AEM Wideband
    -568 Trans rebuilt this year w/ Quaife LSD
    -'93 octane pump gas
    -'91 electronics, I did this modification when my car was still bone stock and everything worked great and their were no codes and I still have no codes.
    -'91 SBEC with original latch adapter I believe - date stamp on PCB is 6-21-2011
    -Running the ostrich2

    I do the following from a base T3 tune template:

    -Scale for +40 Injectors (52lb/hr)
    -Scale for 3.0 Bar Map Sensor
    -Adjust the FuelBatteryOffset for the injectors, pulled the data from the +40 Tune
    -Set the DensityFactorPartThrottle and DensityFactorFullThrottle to different values, started with 8529, as suggest by Rob in another thread. Also started with 9020 on both(as that was set in the +40 tune)
    -Manually adjust DensityFactorPartThrottle up or down and flash while the car is running, it doesn't seem to have any impact on AFR.
    -I have also tried burning a chip to rule out any issues with the Ostrich, but that also does the same thing. I also followed the instructions on the moates troubleshooting site to determine if it could be the Ostrich, but that tested fine.

    The car starts fine, it runs through the fuel cold enrichment cycles just fine and then once it idles down it's always lean, usually stays in the 16 range, but sometimes jumps around from 15.5 to 18. I have also tried modifying the FuelPartThrottleFromLoMap but that only seemed to have an effect one time. I modified a value and the car died as I'm guessing it was set too rich, but then it started fine after dying and any other changes to FuelPartThrottleFromLoMap have had no effect. I'm kind of at a loss here as it seems really odd that no cal modifications seem to make any changes in how the car runs. I'm wondering if somehow my SBEC may be at fault, or perhaps the latch adapter.

    Any help or suggestions is greatly appreciated?

    Thanks,
    Joel
    Last edited by turbo_III; 07-02-2020 at 03:59 PM.

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