Masi thermostat box GROUP BUY

[iTurbo]

I've received the thermostat/head O-ring from Asa in the mail (fits perfect) and also got the 1"NPTx5/8" hose nipple stainless steel fitting from eBay. I thought I would post some pics of these on a bare cylinder head. So far it looks like the only issue is the intake manifold clearance.

Attachment 48932Attachment 48933Attachment 48934Attachment 48935Attachment 48936Attachment 48937Attachment 48938Attachment 48939Attachment 48940Attachment 48941

EDIT: Just so everybody knows, the radiator hose outlet piece is made by lengel and was part of a previous group buy.

[Reaper1]

That is looking SWEET! Where was it hitting the intake at? I looked at the picture that showed it, but I still couldn't tell really where the problem was.

[iTurbo]

It was hitting the intake manifold at the very lower edge of the radiator outlet piece. The only radiator outlet piece I have on hand to test-fit is the lengel made piece, but I really doubt it would matter if it was stock or lengel-made.

I have another stock Masi 16v thermostat housing that I can use to check/compare, and I also have a stock 16v intake manifold showing up next week that will help me figure out what will need to be changed. I will be sure to share pics on the forum so Asa and I (and everybody else) can come to the best solution for this.

[acannell]

That is looking SWEET! Where was it hitting the intake at? I looked at the picture that showed it, but I still couldn't tell really where the problem was.

glad you like it!

the production version will have a much smoother finish and proper fillets. ive already designed the toolpath, im just waiting to see how much it needs to be modified to clear the intake. ill probably have to clock the flange and/or increase the angle of the main body versus the head flange. heres the latest model, not yet corrected for fitment

[iTurbo]

I've recieved prototype #2 from Asa and took some pics tonight. These pictures are from test-fitting on a bare cylinder head and intake manifold. The intake manifold was installed onto the head before attempting to install the thermostat housing.

The view in the pictures is looking straight down the head from the cam bore on the front (sprocket) side of the motor.
The first pic is of no thermostat housing installed.
The second pic is of prototype #1 and shows that it hit the intake before being able to go all the way on.
The third pic shows prototype #2 and that it is 99% on before hitting the intake manifold.
The forth pic shows the clearance issue with prototype #2.
The fifth pic shows the passenger side view of prototype #2 installed.
The sixth pic shows a close-up of where prototype #2 hits the intake manifold.


SO CLOSE!!! I could sand off an tiny bit from proto #2 and it would work. I wanted to post these pics to show progress on the development of this part and help Asa decide what is needed further. TOMORROW I will be posting additional pics when I attempt to install prototype #2 onto a complete Masi 16v engine on a stand in my garage.

Attachment 49404Attachment 49405Attachment 49406Attachment 49407Attachment 49408Attachment 49409

[acannell]

I've recieved prototype #2 from Asa and took some pics tonight. These pictures are from test-fitting on a bare cylinder head and intake manifold. The intake manifold was installed onto the head before attempting to install the thermostat housing.

The view in the pictures is looking straight down the head from the cam bore on the front (sprocket) side of the motor.
The first pic is of no thermostat housing installed.
The second pic is of prototype #1 and shows that it hit the intake before being able to go all the way on.
The third pic shows prototype #2 and that it is 99% on before hitting the intake manifold.
The forth pic shows the clearance issue with prototype #2.
The fifth pic shows the passenger side view of prototype #2 installed.
The sixth pic shows a close-up of where prototype #2 hits the intake manifold.


SO CLOSE!!! I could sand off an tiny bit from proto #2 and it would work. I wanted to post these pics to show progress on the development of this part and help Asa decide what is needed further. TOMORROW I will be posting additional pics when I attempt to install prototype #2 onto a complete Masi 16v engine on a stand in my garage.

Attachment 49404Attachment 49405Attachment 49406Attachment 49407Attachment 49408Attachment 49409

wow that is close...

can you try seeing if it fits okay if its installed before the intake manifold is bolted on? i think it might work that way (fingers crossed)

does the intake manifold have a gasket? because the gasket would push the intake out further and make give that little bit of extra clearance needed, especially for installation before the intake is bolted on

[iTurbo]

The intake is just lightly bolted down with no gasket, but having a gasket would help a bit. I will try that tonight. I'll also see if it makes any difference if the thermostat is installed first, then the intake, although it would be much more desirable to be able to remove/install the thermostat housing without touching the intake.

I'll post more pics of it on the complete motor that's on the stand in my garage after work tonight.

[acannell]

The intake is just lightly bolted down with no gasket, but having a gasket would help a bit. I will try that tonight. I'll also see if it makes any difference if the thermostat is installed first, then the intake, although it would be much more desirable to be able to remove/install the thermostat housing without touching the intake.

I'll post more pics of it on the complete motor that's on the stand in my garage after work tonight.

hmm

heres some ideas, tell me what you think:

1) increase or decrease thickness of head flange, thus moving the point that hits further and closer and maybe allowing it to not hit. you could simulate this by adding washers/shim between it and the head, or using a belt sander to make it thinner. the oring groove would, of course, be machined to the appropriate depth in the production version.

2) reduce size of tstat flange overall. if its made smaller than the tstat housing by say 2mm overall, would that look okay? it would be a "step" but maybe thats not big deal? maybe it would look cool who knows. it probably doesnt mate up perfectly with the tstat housing anyways does it?

3) combine 1 & 2. i.e. something like 1mm reduction in overall tstat flange dimensions, and increase/decrease head flange by 2mm, and suddenly the point that hits is in the valley where it doesnt ..

4) add a flat spot to tstat flange where it hits. id like to avoid this for aesthetics,however its not really that out of the ordinary for parts to have features like this that we take for granted and never notice.

5) and of course, raising the body. as the model stands right now, raising the body up would mean the lower surface of the head passage would no longer be tangent to the body outer diameter and so a hump would need to form, or the body diameter would need to further increase to maintain tangency. the body dia has already been increased from prototype #1. perhaps its not that big of a deal to make it bigger. but its already bigger than stock, if that matters. also, the head coolant passage will be below the inside surface and start to get ugly and not smooth. as it currently is its tangent to the inside main bore diameter as you can see and if that bore moves up then the head passage goes below the surface and no more smooth transition


so perhaps you could try this tonight:

-bolt the prototype #2 to the head, then see if you can install the int. mani. gasket and the intake mani.

-then, try adding a washer or some kind of shim between the prototype #2 head flange and the head, and see how that works out. maybe the combination of the intake gasket and the shim will give enough clearance.

i would hold off on using the belt sander at the moment though.

[acannell]

any news?

[4 l-bodies]

Asa,
My .02 cents. You have already put in a huge amount of time into this project. It certainly wouldn't bother me in the slightest to put in a small flat spot on flange so it clears. No one is going to see it anyway as it is already on the bottom. I'm pretty picky on how stuff functions and looks too, so I can't imagine anyone getting their panties in a bunch over this.
Bottom line; fix the issue easiest way possible that you personally can live with. IMO, not worth spending much more time reconfiguring the cad design.
Todd

[acannell]

Asa,
My .02 cents. You have already put in a huge amount of time into this project. It certainly wouldn't bother me in the slightest to put in a small flat spot on flange so it clears. No one is going to see it anyway as it is already on the bottom. I'm pretty picky on how stuff functions and looks too, so I can't imagine anyone getting their panties in a bunch over this.
Bottom line; fix the issue easiest way possible that you personally can live with. IMO, not worth spending much more time reconfiguring the cad design.
Todd

i'm considering the flat spot..but I'd like to see what happens when iTurbo does the fitment with the intake off first and the intake gasket installed..maybe we get really lucky and it fits!

if i do the flat Ive gotta get all the group buyers on board..im not sure they would be expecting that..and i dont think they are watching this thread..but who knows

[iTurbo]

So sorry for the wait! We've had a big 'push' to get caught up at work lately and I've also had to delve into fixing my brother's '82 Impala SBC intake/carb problems.

I just took some pictures of prototype #2 on the complete Masi 16v engine..

Here is a picture of the thermostat flange with no thermostat housing installed.
Attachment 49430

And here is a picture of attempting to install prototype #1. As you can see it had a ways to go before meeting the head flange because of intake manifold clearance.
Attachment 49431

Here are some pictures of attempting to install prototype #2 onto the complete engine. As you can see, it is VERY close to fitting perfectly. Even better than test fitting this part with the bare head/intake I posted in my previous post! There is barely a gap at all on the bottom side if the thermostat housing where it meets the cylinder head. I've posted a close-up shot of where it hits the intake manifold. Either a slight flat spot there, or a slight reclocking of the thermostat outlet flange would be all that is needed to provide necessary clearance. Looking at the thermostat outlet flange from the front side of the motor, if the flange was reclocked just a few degrees counter-clockwise it would make all the difference and negate the need for a flat spot at all.

Attachment 49432Attachment 49433Attachment 49434

I agree with Todd's thoughts on this. I don't think anybody is going to be up in arms if a flat spot is needed on the bottom side as it would be completely out of view on an assembled engine anyway. I am beyond pleased that you've decided to take this project on in the first place! I know you have a lot of irons in the fire right now and I don't want you to be too stuck on making this absolutely perfect in light of that because it's such a niche product.

If I can do anything else, just let me know. Certain views etc... I have not done any sanding to either prototype housings yet and can send them back as soon as you want.

[GLHNSLHT2]

What's the issue causing the interference? A stock 1 sits approx .125-.250 (I just eyeballed it) above the stock intake 1 think I noticed is that the t-stat flange is rotated counter clockwise so the flat is parallel with the intake runner on the stock piece vs not on the prototype. But that still wouldn't give you the amount of clearance a stock one has vs the pics Jeremy is posting.

[acannell]

I agree with Todd's thoughts on this. I don't think anybody is going to be up in arms if a flat spot is needed on the bottom side as it would be completely out of view on an assembled engine anyway. I am beyond pleased that you've decided to take this project on in the first place! I know you have a lot of irons in the fire right now and I don't want you to be too stuck on making this absolutely perfect in light of that because it's such a niche product.

If I can do anything else, just let me know. Certain views etc... I have not done any sanding to either prototype housings yet and can send them back as soon as you want.

Wow thats close. Thanks for the awesome pics Jeremy!

So, which would be better. A flat? Or making the entire outer profile of the flange smaller by about 2mm?

Whats weird is when you clock the flange, that area where its hitting never really changes. It stays pretty much the same depth as the geometry rotates. Hard to explain but you can see it in SW when you rotate it. I rotated it in this #2 prototype as much as possible until it actually started to get deeper.

And how about if I cut the head flange thinner, so the whole thing is moved towards the head a bit more? Along with the flat/smaller flange?

It might be a good idea for you to send it back to me so I can precisely modify it and then send it back to you again. Do you still have the box it came in? If so I can just email you a shipping label to tape to it and you can put it in your mailbox or hand it to your mailman. No post office!

Of course lets finish our discussion about all this before sending it..

[acannell]

What's the issue causing the interference? A stock 1 sits approx .125-.250 (I just eyeballed it) above the stock intake 1 think I noticed is that the t-stat flange is rotated counter clockwise so the flat is parallel with the intake runner on the stock piece vs not on the prototype. But that still wouldn't give you the amount of clearance a stock one has vs the pics Jeremy is posting.

On the stock one, the coolant passage to the head is angled and not normal to the head flange. So it allows the main body and the flange to be angled up and away. Since they cast it that was no big deal. But if I want to do that on a 3 axis i've got to add some complexities I'd rather not add.

[iTurbo]

What's the issue causing the interference? A stock 1 sits approx .125-.250 (I just eyeballed it) above the stock intake 1 think I noticed is that the t-stat flange is rotated counter clockwise so the flat is parallel with the intake runner on the stock piece vs not on the prototype. But that still wouldn't give you the amount of clearance a stock one has vs the pics Jeremy is posting.

It is really tough to say at this point because the clearance is so tight, even on the stock cast piece. If I remember right, the clearance on the stock cast piece was only about 1mm away from the intake manifold. Much less than the .125-.250 you've seen, but every setup is different. I have another production motor I will check this on.. You are right on the T-stat flange 'flat' being parallel with the intake manifold runner though. As you can see in the pics I posted, the 'flat' on prototype #2 is not quite parallel with the intake manifold runner as it is with the stock cast piece.

Kinda funny to think that ~30 years ago there must have been some engineer racking his mind over how to get this to fit just right!

[acannell]

It is really tough to say at this point because the clearance is so tight, even on the stock cast piece. If I remember right, the clearance on the stock cast piece was only about 1mm away from the intake manifold. Much less than the .125-.250 you've seen, but every setup is different. I have another production motor I will check this on.. You are right on the T-stat flange 'flat' being parallel with the intake manifold runner though. As you can see in the pics I posted, the 'flat' on prototype #2 is not quite parallel with the intake manifold runner as it is with the stock cast piece.

Kinda funny to think that ~30 years ago there must have been some engineer racking his mind over how to get this to fit just right!

if there is variability in that gap distance that could be a big problem..I'm already scrounging to get a few mm's more

btw have you tried the new nut reliefs on the #2 proto? do the nuts clear and rest entirely on the flat surfaces? and can you actually get the nuts in there and tighten it down? with the intake off of course)

[iTurbo]

Wow, I didn't even notice that until just now! I've been so concerned with just getting the housing to fit up against the head flange that I didn't even notice the updated nut reliefs in proto #2 versus proto #1. They are much better and I can see how it would aid in tightening the nuts down (with intake manifold removed).

I will try installing the nuts, but with the ever-so-slight clearance issue that still exists with #2, I don't want to break it. This proto #2 is like 99% fitting it is so close! I will be checking my other stock 'production' Masi 16v engine for variances in that thermostat/intake manifold clearance tomorrow. I have no less than 3-4 production engines lying around and I will check them all for variances.

[acannell]

Wow, I didn't even notice that until just now! I've been so concerned with just getting the housing to fit up against the head flange that I didn't even notice the updated nut reliefs in proto #2 versus proto #1. They are much better and I can see how it would aid in tightening the nuts down (with intake manifold removed).

I will try installing the nuts, but with the ever-so-slight clearance issue that still exists with #2, I don't want to break it. This proto #2 is like 99% fitting it is so close! I will be checking my other stock 'production' Masi 16v engine for variances in that thermostat/intake manifold clearance tomorrow. I have no less than 3-4 production engines lying around and I will check them all for variances.

you can test the nuts with the intake manifold off so there is no danger of bending it right? it will definitely bend if you try it with the intake on and its hitting

[iTurbo]

With the intake manifold removed, yes..no danger or bending/flexing the proto thermostat housing. I will try this as I have a fully disassembled 16v engine and also assembled engines to try just about anything on.