exposing masi knowledge

[4 l-bodies]

I have these on my sbc they flow over 300cfm with a 2.1 valve and aren't even the large ones they offer. Were ricks flow numbers ever seen on paper? Was it with those cams he had welded for taller lift?

http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_115

That was the last time I talked to Rick D he told me 300 on a hogged out Masi head. If he can show me flow numbers on paper that beats a ported LS9 head. Until then I wave the BS flag.

A stock masi head with stock lift camshafts flows better than the Lotus & Neon 16V Chrysler heads. Ranging from quite a bit, to just barely. Where the Masi really shines is the exhaust port. It fact, Cosworth did some things to make it flow worse, so it wouldn't outflow the intake. As some of you may know, the exhaust flow is critical in performance turbo applications. I have flowed multiple masi heads on a flow bench. In fact I had Rick's masi head on flow bench. Rick's masi head port work was done long before LS9 cylinder heads, so I don't know where that comparison came from? I was working on a max effort LT5 (old school ZR1) almost at the same time Rick's head was benched, maybe that is where the comparison to SBC (and DOHC) came from? The exhaust of Rick's head outflowed the LT5's at any lift! The intake did not. I know Rick's cylinder head has been flowed on more than one flowbench. #'s floating around probably are based on lift exceeding stock lift masi camshafts. Rick's max #'s are not stock lift. A huge amount of time was spent on R&D of Rick's head, It was worked on by more than one party in this TM community. So it is sort of insulting to any that worked on it as referring to it as a "hogged out" head. A bit more R&D was done on it than that.
Todd

[85boostbox]

So where are these flow numbers. You keep comparing but no numbers. I dont mean to be rude but that would be saying I have a 9 second car on our beloved mitsu turbo without a intercooler.

Sorry to be insulting but maybe I used the wrong words then. I talked to Rick and I remember him saying that he had a head that flowed 300/300. Am I wrong???

And Reaper. Some small block chevys see a lot of lift. These are not the only cars that I screw with.... So people comparing apples to oranges proves nothing.

[Reaper1]

The LS9 story comes from a shop in California. I don't remember off the top of my brain whether Rick specified if it was his head that is on his GLHS or what. It's been almost 3 years ago. The one part of the story that sticks out besides the results is that the shop called Rick because they were very impressed with the numbers they saw.

I was just looking for the head flow comparison that was done many years ago. I couldn't remember if it had a Masi included in that test. I thought Gary Donovan had it on his site, but I didn't see it.

Todd, do you have any Masi flow numbers that can be posted? I know there are people out there that would rather that stuff be kept confidential, so I understand if not.

At any rate, this is supposed to be an information sharing thread, not a bash-fest.

[85boostbox]

http://thedodgegarage.com/cylinder_head_flow.html


Right here

[Reaper1]

And Reaper. Some small block chevys see a lot of lift. These are not the only cars that I screw with.... So people comparing apples to oranges proves nothing.

No doubt! I'm with you 100% on that. Yes, it would be very easy to compare apples to oranges in this case. Maybe a better comparison would have been between the Lotus head, or even better, some of the well known Honda heads (simply because they are even more directly comparable due to cam on bucket and the overall architecture).

I can't help but reiterate that peak flow numbers, just like peak dyno numbers, hardly tell the whole story and very rarely predict how well the car will perform on track.

[Reaper1]

http://thedodgegarage.com/cylinder_head_flow.html


Right here

Thanks! Dunno how I didn't find it. One thing of note is that the heads were tested at 10" water, then a conversion factor was applied to get the numbers posted on that page (as it states above the first spreadsheet). In my mind this is ok for rough estimates, but doesn't really tell the true story. Also, were these flowed with the intake and exhaust manifolds on the heads? If not, then the Masi numbers are off anyway as the intake is actually an extension of the siamiezed intake ports.

[85boostbox]

Agreed with the above. Now comparing a lt5 head sounds more reasonable. Those were lotus designed heads for the zr1 vette. Also the ONLY ohc or dohc chevy v8 to be produced. Sort of a unicorn in that matter.

I have no doubt on cosworth heads flowing very well. I research a lot of there designs and get my mind going. Look at formula 1 cars. Or the escort cosworth. Amazing machines to say the least.

[joelzip]

I want it to be heard that I knew it was going to be expensive. I agreed to the pricing before it was done. I can understand that enlarging a port might be beneficial. I was just surprised at how little amount of material was taken off for the explained amount of time that was spent. I was also told that he knew how much was able to be taken off without blowing through the walls. Except I think about 1/64 of an inch was removed with a sanding roll. Most of it wasn't enough to even remove the casting texture. It was just very very surprising at how little was done for the amount of time that I was told was spent, because that was to only thing I could trust he would do. Kinda vague to pay someone to port a head with out any real measurement of what was done. Its not like I could see a pile of alumnum that was removed. It just looks like stock with about 2 hours of work, a 240 grit roll on a grinder just enough to make shiny spots. I know this head flows well, but a head that was designed to spin low rpm in a tc it a different animal at 8,000rpm. Thats why I thought the runners, intake and ports could use some material removed to match the new rpm span.

[4 l-bodies]

So where are these flow numbers. You keep comparing but no numbers. I dont mean to be rude but that would be saying I have a 9 second car on our beloved mitsu turbo without a intercooler.

Sorry to be insulting but maybe I used the wrong words then. I talked to Rick and I remember him saying that he had a head that flowed 300/300. Am I wrong???

"I" keep comparing but no #'s? Previous post was my first post in this thread! Flow #'s are in Rick's, Pat's and my hands. Probably others too. It is Rick's head and if he chooses to post these #'s he will. My reasoning for not posting? He paid for the work and no one else. Probably many more hours went unbilled from Pat and myself. We all wanted to see what this cylinder head could flow.

Yes the masi head is that good, esp. the exhaust! My flowbench #'s were done at TPiS. A very well known SBC engine builder. So no fudging of #'s here. Just so you know Rick's head (at least on the exhaust side) exceeded 300 CFM on two separate benches. That is a whole bunch more CFM on the exhaust side than the #'s you posted for CNC'd LS3 head.

Here are some stock Masi #'s for you Chris/Joel.
A stock masi head at stock lift .335 will flow around 235 intake and 215 exhaust. Even at .200 lift it is outflowing virtually all ported +1 or BV 8v 2.2 heads (at any lift) on the exhaust side! All about port design and velocity.

My Masi head with Rev aftermarket valves just roughed in at .335 lift flowed 254 intake and 215 CFM exhaust. This is with zero porting or throat work done. Also with molded clay intake, and no pipe on exhaust. Just placing exhaust extension on it will pick up exhaust #'s a bunch. Gains on the exhaust sides are very big after taking out restrictions meant to reduce flow. If your not careful, your exhaust will easily outflow your intake. That at least in normally aspirated form, is a serious no-no.

[4 l-bodies]

I want it to be heard that I knew it was going to be expensive. I agreed to the pricing before it was done. I can understand that enlarging a port might be beneficial. I was just surprised at how little amount of material was taken off for the explained amount of time that was spent. I was also told that he knew how much was able to be taken off without blowing through the walls. Except I think about 1/64 of an inch was removed with a sanding roll. Most of it wasn't enough to even remove the casting texture. It was just very very surprising at how little was done for the amount of time that I was told was spent, because that was to only thing I could trust he would do. Kinda vague to pay someone to port a head with out any real measurement of what was done. Its not like I could see a pile of alumnum that was removed. It just looks like stock with about 2 hours of work, a 240 grit roll on a grinder just enough to make shiny spots. I know this head flows well, but a head that was designed to spin low rpm in a tc it a different animal at 8,000rpm. Thats why I thought the runners, intake and ports could use some material removed to match the new rpm span.

So you did not receive any flowbench results of your actual head flow? In my book that is part of the deal. If you did, you could determine what a optimum camshaft lift would be. That is exactly what Rick did with his flowbench results. He had camshafts made for his particular headflow. How about any cc port volumes? I have all the stock measurements.
Todd

[Ondonti]

Wow, I think a bunch of these last 20 ignorant bashing posts need to be deleted.

Comparing port jobs to Chevy STOCK heads is a very common thing in the car world. If you did not know that, then sorry, you were wrong, tuck tail, stop complaining. In the 6g7x Mitsu community we like to compare a ported Mivec 6g75 head to the stock LS7 heads. We compare to Chevy heads because they are the most documented cylinder heads on the planet.

If you think 10 hours is a lot of time into a head that someone has never touched before, you are looking for bargains you don't deserve. The guy should have sold your head if you didn't pay anything. If you didn't make your requirements clear, that is your problem.

I don't see anything wrong with the port job and unless you had some measurement requirements for port sizes you might want to realize that gasket matching is newbie head porting science. Unless you know what you are trying to do (because you or others have done it a million times) you don't just take material out of a head. Ed Kelly who ports 3.0 heads has found on his flowbench that for stock size valves he likes to add material to the intake ports. When I was working on porting a Lotus head (project never finished) I calculated what size I wanted the intake and exhaust ports to be and then measured as I went. I was working for free but I was planning on putting 50-100 hours into it.

If Steve charges $2,000 for a very nice cookie cutter 8 valve head and you want some sorta custom extensive head port on a 16 valve head you should be looking at a 3500 dollar bill or more since its such a rare head. You seem to want the world for 500 dollars. Ed Kelly charges very little compared to others and uses a flowbench along with other tools to avoid just going for flow #'s. He does it as a hobby. You went to someone who is trying to make a living. That exhaust manifold also looked great less the needed repair. I think that should have been more like 400 dollars but its not easy to weld cast iron. I would have worried more about if it will crack later on then a hole that needs repairing. That was a SIMPLE MISTAKE that could have been repaired. I have paid more for welding and fixed holes myself because I felt like I still got the value I paid for. You always feel ripped off by others when you are used to doing your own car work, but then realize how much non car people spend on car repairs and be humbled.

[joelzip]

Everything was done by Rick. The head, intake work was about $2,500. Stock cams, stock cam seals, new valves, guides buckets. The $1000 was only for port and polish nothing else. No flow numbers, just that it would take 10 plus hours and " he poured his heart and soul into it" that was on my email receipt.

[4 l-bodies]

I'd have Koffel's place flow bench it, then you would know.
Todd

[joelzip]

I would know something if I had it benched before I sent it out. Here are some more plugs http://forums.aaca.org/f144/16v-dohc...ug-304863.html May I ask why some are going through the trouble of cutting the head open for a larger plug hex when there are plenty with the smaller 16mm hex on them? I am going to research valve stud washers and find a substitute. I think this thread might be most useful pointing out substitute parts. I'm done on my end with what was done on the head and for how much / what I was told. Whats done is done and I am moving forward. When the car is shipped up I am going to use the stock block to hold the masi head in place while I make a custom exhaust manifold. I am going to use the thick 1.5" schedule 40 weld els for the manifold and cut in an external gate for an l-body. If there is more interest when I am done I will offer to make another. I am waiting for my turbo collector, car, and turbo at this point.

[85boostbox]

Wow, I think a bunch of these last 20 ignorant bashing posts need to be deleted.

Comparing port jobs to Chevy STOCK heads is a very common thing in the car world. If you did not know that, then sorry, you were wrong, tuck tail, stop complaining. In the 6g7x Mitsu community we like to compare a ported Mivec 6g75 head to the stock LS7 heads. We compare to Chevy heads because they are the most documented cylinder heads on the planet.

If you think 10 hours is a lot of time into a head that someone has never touched before, you are looking for bargains you don't deserve. The guy should have sold your head if you didn't pay anything. If you didn't make your requirements clear, that is your problem.

I don't see anything wrong with the port job and unless you had some measurement requirements for port sizes you might want to realize that gasket matching is newbie head porting science. Unless you know what you are trying to do (because you or others have done it a million times) you don't just take material out of a head. Ed Kelly who ports 3.0 heads has found on his flowbench that for stock size valves he likes to add material to the intake ports. When I was working on porting a Lotus head (project never finished) I calculated what size I wanted the intake and exhaust ports to be and then measured as I went. I was working for free but I was planning on putting 50-100 hours into it.

If Steve charges $2,000 for a very nice cookie cutter 8 valve head and you want some sorta custom extensive head port on a 16 valve head you should be looking at a 3500 dollar bill or more since its such a rare head. You seem to want the world for 500 dollars. Ed Kelly charges very little compared to others and uses a flowbench along with other tools to avoid just going for flow #'s. He does it as a hobby. You went to someone who is trying to make a living. That exhaust manifold also looked great less the needed repair. I think that should have been more like 400 dollars but its not easy to weld cast iron. I would have worried more about if it will crack later on then a hole that needs repairing. That was a SIMPLE MISTAKE that could have been repaired. I have paid more for welding and fixed holes myself because I felt like I still got the value I paid for. You always feel ripped off by others when you are used to doing your own car work, but then realize how much non car people spend on car repairs and be humbled.

This post is so full of crap I had to put boots on to read it. If I am paying 2000 dollars just for a port and polish I would have to much money. Cindy and our other vendors sell there stage 3 heads with big valves for 1500 with a flow sheet. Why in the world would I spend 2000 on just a port and polish.

And people compare to GM heads cause they produce power with a well proven design. Pushrod engine. I was calling BS on saying that a Masi would outflow a ported LS9 head.

Oh and the fact that the exhaust flows more on the Masi. Doesn't bother me one bit. It is still a fact that people put 1200 whp down with a factory ls engine with some boost.

[joelzip]

Enough with the comparison to chevy heads, I don't think we are gaining anything here. Maybe we could turn this back to the original reason why I posted this thread which is to learn something. We now know that there are several 16mm small hex spark plugs available, why are some having the head modified for a different plug base? Also I am trying to find any substitute parts that we can use as alternatives to the obsolete or expensive oem pieces.I am going to need a tensioner as well, I know that some have taken the early 8v tensioner and added an 8mm thick spacer to it. Is there any pictures of this?, is the welding necessary? Also I am trying to find any substitute parts that we can use as alternatives to the obsolete or expensive oem pieces. I'm going to find an alternative o-ring for the spark plug hole gasket, valve cover stud washers, and I will report back if the 8 valve cam seals are the same.

[GLHNSLHT2]

8v cam seals are NOT the same.

[4 l-bodies]

...I know that some have taken the early 8v tensioner and added an 8mm thick spacer to it. Is there any pictures of this?, is the welding necessary? Also I am trying to find any substitute parts that we can use as alternatives to the obsolete or expensive oem pieces. I'm going to find an alternative o-ring for the spark plug hole gasket, valve cover stud washers, and I will report back if the 8 valve cam seals are the same.

8V cams seals aren't even close, don't bother. ID is WAY off. A 8mm or 5/16" spacer and early tensioner can be used. Don't even have to weld it if you don't want to. You need a picture of that, try to visualize a thick washer under a tensioner pulley (lol). RDI has these available, he used early belt tensioner and machined piece to make these up.
I had a group buy on billet thermostat housing covers made up for the 16V motor. Adam Lengel made these for us. For some reason these corroded badly on originals. Adam's version is far superior than original. I think I have a few left of these. I also had 25 pairs of adjustable cam pulleys made up for these motors. A few members bought multiple sets from me. Maybe someone would be willing to sell you a set if you wish to pursue. I think I am down to two new sets. No, current 8V ones don't fit, however the first small batch or two of square tooth pulleys from Fidanza were made incorrectly and had degree marks on wrong side for 8V motors (oops!). Some masi owners used these on their vehicles. They still needed to be narrowed as full width pulley would hit the head.
I personally have no intention of opening up spark plug recess. Plugs aren't that difficult to find. I believe there are some alternatives to valve cover stud grommets. It looked promising last time I checked them out. Another member had to have some billet cam caps made up. Don't ever drop yours, they are fragile as another member found out the hard way.
Well, report back with spark plug hole grommets. Too thick and valve cover won't seal, too loose and oil will pour into spark plug holes, then pour onto exhaust manifold and burn. Then of course you need to find some made of the correct material too. RDI had these re-popped. Sure glad I didn't drink the Kool-Aid on the valve cover gasket reproduction group buy. Saw that one coming from about a mile away.
Todd

[2.216VTurbo]

I would know something if I had it benched before I sent it out. Here are some more plugs http://forums.aaca.org/f144/16v-dohc...ug-304863.html May I ask why some are going through the trouble of cutting the head open for a larger plug hex when there are plenty with the smaller 16mm hex on them? I am going to research valve stud washers and find a substitute. I think this thread might be most useful pointing out substitute parts. I'm done on my end with what was done on the head and for how much / what I was told. Whats done is done and I am moving forward. When the car is shipped up I am going to use the stock block to hold the masi head in place while I make a custom exhaust manifold. I am going to use the thick 1.5" schedule 40 weld els for the manifold and cut in an external gate for an l-body. If there is more interest when I am done I will offer to make another. I am waiting for my turbo collector, car, and turbo at this point.

Well, I told you why in that post right? I bought a LARGE lot of plugs from ebay that are correct in every way except body/socket size. Now if I had enough plugs so I could change them about every 5K in all four Masi 16v cars I have (with at least one more car planned as I have plenty of spares) and never had to buy another plug, wouldnt it make sense to find a way to make them work? Not the solution for everybody but it's gonna work for me. Keep in mind that 15 years ago when I was building my first Masi motor, there was no information sharing thread where alternative plug and part numbers could be found. In 2014 your task of building a heavily modified Masi 16v motor is relatively easy

[Reaper1]

While I certainly appreciate the information that the 8V cam seals don't work, because this an information :SHARING: thread, could somebody please post the correct part, part number, or alternatives?

How much for a t-stat housing? How much for cam gears? I was going to eventually make both myself because I figured there were none left.