Thinking of running E85 in a log TI

[iTurbo]

I recently built an '85 Turbo I engine for my Omni GLH Turbo. Last night it occurred to me that I should consider running E85 fuel because I can get it locally now, and it might help out the fact that there is no intercooler.

The car still has a relatively stock fuel system. All stock steel fuel lines (5/16" feed, 1/4" return), stock FPR, although it does have an in-tank Walbro 255 ltr/hr pump. I have stock injectors I was going to use, but I haven't installed them yet. Obviously I would need something substantially larger.

Being that it is an '85, it has the G/bathtub/287 head and associated pistons, early 'tall' distributor, and '85 TI logic module.... What further mods might I have to do to get satisfactory performance with E85 fuel? Could it be as simple as installing larger injectors, a wide band O2 gauge, and playing with the base ignition timing some?

I would like to make around 180 WHP with this setup, but I'm not so sure I will be able to run more than 12 psi at WOT due to high charge temps and detonation. It is a fairly stock engine with .030" cast pistons, 3" TU swing valve/exhaust system (no cat, Ultroflo muffler), and a manual boost controller.


[edit].... I will be doing break in with stock injectors/cal and boost level. E85 would come after it has proven itself..

[zin]

I think you're premise is sound, I've been toying with a similar idea, but using water/alky injection as the means of extending the useable boost/HP level.

I'd think the easiest way to get a cal that works would be to size the injectors to be bigger by the same percentage that the E85 requires, that way all you'd have to do is change the injectors to make it "work". While it's less than perfect, it's an expedient way to have a workable solution.

I'm wondering if flex-fuel (stainless) injectors would size up correctly... Might have to adjust the fuel pressure to get the flow rate "just right".

I can imagine the timing would want to be higher with E85, but maybe just adjusting the base timing would get it done, expedient style...

Seems like it's pretty doable, with minimal changes...

Mike

[iTurbo]

Thanks for the input. I'm hoping to at least try it out for the sake of an interesting project once the new motor is broken in properly. I do have +20 injectors that might work at stock power levels for now. I've heard MP +20s are very similar to the flex fuel injector flow. If I could get about 200 WHP out of a log TI i'd be pretty happy.

Anybody know if there is an adjustable FPR that will fit like stock on an early 'log' Turbo I?

[RattFink]

Sounds cool, I may try this also. I have a stock 86 Charger being built now and I think it'd be cool to get a few more horsepower out of it.

[zin]

MSD makes one, looks like it may be a Bosch unit modified to be adjustable. I actually have one, but Lord knows where right now, otherwise I'd snap a picture and post it.

Mike

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MSD makes one, looks like it may be a Bosch unit modified to be adjustable. I actually have one, but Lord knows where right now, otherwise I'd snap a picture and post it.

Mike

[iTurbo]

Is this the one Mike?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-2222/overview/

[86TSiGuy]

I recently built an '85 Turbo I engine for my Omni GLH Turbo. Last night it occurred to me that I should consider running E85 fuel because I can get it locally now, and it might help out the fact that there is no intercooler.

The car still has a relatively stock fuel system. All stock steel fuel lines (5/16" feed, 1/4" return), stock FPR, although it does have an in-tank Walbro 255 ltr/hr pump. I have stock injectors I was going to use, but I haven't installed them yet. Obviously I would need something substantially larger.

Being that it is an '85, it has the G/bathtub/287 head and associated pistons, early 'tall' distributor, and '85 TI logic module.... What further mods might I have to do to get satisfactory performance with E85 fuel? Could it be as simple as installing larger injectors, a wide band O2 gauge, and playing with the base ignition timing some?

I would like to make around 180 WHP with this setup, but I'm not so sure I will be able to run more than 12 psi at WOT due to high charge temps and detonation. It is a fairly stock engine with .030" cast pistons, 3" TU swing valve/exhaust system (no cat, Ultroflo muffler), and a manual boost controller.


[edit].... I will be doing break in with stock injectors/cal and boost level. E85 would come after it has proven itself..

I've been playing with log motors for awhile now, including one I currently run with water/method pre-compressor. I don't think your going to want to hear this but there are some big issues with a) running 14psi and b) running drastically altered fuel and spark parameters.

I think you can get 175chp from a log fairly easily but anything beyond that will require a combination of money/skill/resources.

I would not advise running e85 without updating the electronics to 87' spec and using a custom LM from fwd or a MP computer.

I do not reccomend water/meth at all w/o the ability to do your own tuning.

12psi on 91 pump and stock ignition advance, an under drive pulley, roller cam, and matching ECU will get you to 175chp with what you have.

If you want more than that you have to either upgrade to T2 specs, or get a spearco or mp kit for the log cars.

[zin]

Yep! That's the one I have.

Mike

- - - Updated - - -

Yep! That's the one I have.

Mike

[iTurbo]

Thanks for the advice. I'm really not interested in running water or meth injection at all. Trying to keep it simple...and if I gotta stay with 91 octane then so be it. I do have an '87 L-body TI logic module, so I can convert to '87 electronics fairly easily with parts lying around here.

Basically I'm putting the log TI back in the car so I can enjoy it again (after sitting 7 years), while I build the TIII motor for it.

[zin]

So, what did you try, and what specific problems did you have?

Mike

- - - Updated - - -

So, what did you try, and what specific problems did you have?

Mike

[86TSiGuy]

So, what did you try, and what specific problems did you have?

Mike

- - - Updated - - -

So, what did you try, and what specific problems did you have?

Mike

was that to me or op?

[iTurbo]

I haven't tried anything yet; still looking into it and hoarding info. I think he meant you 86TSiGuy.

[OmniLuvr]

ive already done it using E85, although i was using a swirl head with g-head pistons. i had the 255 pump, stock fuel lines, stock regulator, stock cal, stock intake and exhaust. only thing i changed was fuel inj to flex fuel (because i had them) and increased the base timing 3 degrees. i ran 12 psi all day long with zero issues, it even passed smog with LOWER than average numbers using the stock cat and complete exhaust. i then tried to turn the boost up, i tricked the map with a zeiner diode and ran as high as 17 psi WITH NO INTERCOOLER! the only problem i had was grenading my 525 trans, so i never made it to 18psi.

with the g-head you may be able to run more boost, especially with proper pistons, had i known i had g-head psitons i might have not ran so much boost, but after this combo worked so good, i built the next engine with t3 pistons (flat top forged) and a g-head. i have succesfully ran 20 psi on a STOCK intercooler, t2 intake, s60 turbo and custom cal with that engine, only to blow up the 1990 523 i swapped in it. i swapped in a 568, but had an inj wire short out, i ran lean on one cyl and popped the head gasket, head and piston still fine...

[iTurbo]

Cool, glad to hear your experience with it, especially on a non-intercooled TI. You say you ran 3 degrees on the base timing....so you had to retard it that much?

I have an OTC 4000E to keep an eye on timing retard and detonation, and will be running a WBO2 as well. Don't have a catalytic converter though...just straight thru 3" mandrel bent exhaust with an Ultraflo muffler and 3" TU swing valve. Going to put it together with a stock A525 trans. Not really shooting for max HP though. If I were to do that I would have put a TII setup in. I've always been intrigued with the whole E85 thing and it seems like it would be great for a log TI if I can set it up right, even if it does only make 180 whp.

[OmniLuvr]

i ran 3 degrees ADVANCED over normal, so if normal was 12, then i ran 15. the only problem you may have depending on your area is cold starting. running e85 with a stock cal doesnt deliver enough fuel, so you may have to crank a few times before it fires off, then help it idle til you build a little bit of heat in the engine. the other problem you may get is the computer trying to compensate at cruz to reach "optimal" fuel ratio, seamed to get slightly worse as it tried to compensate to run "leaner", it was fine with the log setup, but stock t2 (before custom cal) made for a slight hesitation during cruz every now and then. the t2 setup may have not worked well because i was running t2 cal (swirl) with a g-head, and conservitive 2 degree advanced timing til i was comfortable with the setup.

i think the stock g-head cal with proper parts will work fine personally.

[Vigo]

I think 180whp on a log on e85 is TOTALLY doable. I don't even think that's 'pushing it' all that far.

Here's dsm running 10s with no intercooler on e85: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oyj0WNISlM

As for what i would do, i would get bigger injectors, buy or make an adjustable inline fuel pressure regulator (log is easy because the FPR just needs hose barbs on both ends). Get a zener diode, make sure the car is rich, set your boost, tune the fuel pressure to get target AFR in the ballpark, and then crank base timing until you see knock. I would just start at 14-15 and go up slowly from there. Granted, this car will probably not work right at anything but WOT with this kind of 'tuning', but i don't think you'll have a hard time getting 180whp.

[crusty shadow]

when I ran E85 in my TI car the only thing I changed was injectors and fuel hoses. a set of +20's will work perfectly with a stock cal. the fuel hoses should all be replaced with alcohol compatible hose- I found it at my local O'Reileys total cost was about 20 bucks for the hose. I would recommend running a good fuel system cleaner through and then changing the fuel filter before filling up on E85. I was running 10 psi on a stock TI cal and had zero issues. I had a wideband in the car at the time and AF never went into the danger zone with the stock cal on 10 psi.

[dodgeshadowchik]

E85 can be tricky...

If you have the means to tune with it, then it can def. be used to unlock some power. But it has its drawbacks. Being alcohol based, it tends to corrode the lines out. OEM's tend to run stainless steel fuel lines to combat this issue, as it eats away at the rubber. You also need to change out the fuel filter quite often, and it is recommended to run 93 through the system to help clean it out. There's a weird "goo" that tends to form if you don't. I have seen first hand the damage of E85 on a dsm that did not use alcohol resistant rubber or cleaned out regularly. Nasty black goo throughout the head!

Also, as mentioned, you use about 33.3% more when running E85, so you need the larger injectors and less fuel economy.

To me, it's not worth the extra hassle when race fuels are still available.

[crusty shadow]

you do NOT need to run stainless anything with E85. people keep assuming ethanol has the same corrosive properties as methanol, it definitely does not. the inside of the gas tank was just as clean and corrosion free 8 months after switching over to E85 as it was before the first fill up. same with the fuel lines. the "black goo" is what you get if you don't swap out the rubber lines for alcohol compatible rubber hose, which you should do first before running E85. had a friend who was running E85 in his supercharged mustang, he had the goo problem even though he had switched out all the rubber fuel lines. turns out he forgot about the in tank hose that connects the fuel pump to the steel line of the hanger assembly. if you thoroughly clean the fuel system before hand you don't need to change the fuel filter nearly as often.

[contraption22]

As mentioned in another thread, E85 at your local gas pump is "up to 85% Ethanol". That means it could be 50% or 70% or 82%. There is no guarantee of consistency. Different ratios of gasoline to alcohol require different tunes.