Originally Posted by Jetmugg
Check out these guys: http://foxinjection.com/index.html They sell a fuel injection setup that replaces a pair of side draft Webers.
Check out these guys: http://foxinjection.com/index.html They sell a fuel injection setup that replaces a pair of side draft Webers.
Drivability not being a concern is the main reason i would suggest a 'simple' side-draft setup. It really only has to work well at WOT and carbs are pretty easy to tune for WOT and very easy to install the wiring for (see what i did there? Hah).What is the general consensus on using some kind of individual runner fuel injection, as opposed to the side-drafts (in terms of cost, complexity, and power potential). I know there has been a LOT of improvement in fuel injection systems since the 80's.
For what I want to do, driveability is not a concern, only making good power at elevated RPM's. I know that one of the higher-end LSR teams uses an AEM management system on their VW Rabbit Pickup truck. That truck has run as fast as 194 mph with a turbo 2 liter VW on gasoline. I'm going to try to post a video of that truck - they used to have some of their videos online, but may have taken them down. In any event, a 194 mph VW pickup is EXTREMELY fast.
If you were to tell us you ALSO wanted to go 195mph i may change my tune, or my recommendation for your tune (ok ill stop) but if you just want to make 250hp i would just do the sidedraft carb setup and spend the rest of your time getting the cylinder head to keep up with it. In my opinion, the relative complexity of fuel injection is an unnecessary distraction for this kind of single-use app.
If you become dead set on using a completely custom intake manifold, PM mr. Asa Cannell here and ask him to show you his CNC manifold parts for this motor: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/me...?6765-acannell
Dont push the red button.You hear me?
I'm happy to be of any help. Most of us here are running turbos, so most don't have a lot of N.A. experience, but we are all cheering you on!! There are three styles of cylinder heads to choose from, the original 1981, 2.2 head is known as the 655. It has the largest intake ports of all but was soon replaced by the G head, basically the same style bathtub type combustion chamber but smaller intake ports. From 1986 on the swirl, or fastburn head was used until the end. There are many opinions on which one is the best.
Thanks
Randy
There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.
Randy Hicks
86 GLHS60
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83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
Edmonton,Alberta,Canada
I'm gaining knowledge quickly, which is a good thing. Yesterday afternoon, I bought a book online that I believe is the Hot Rod book shown above. A seller on Amazon had it listed, he didn't have a photo of the book, but the description and 1985 date matched, so I pulled the trigger on that deal. I also bought the 4th edition of the Mopar 2.2/2.5 FWD performance handbook. What's ironic is that I used to own a copy of that book (probably 1st edition), that I bought back in '86 or so. My original copy must have gotten tossed out somewhere along the line.
Tomorrow, I'm having lunch with the local race engineering guy to talk about details and possibilities for my project and potentially resurrecting an existing race car that has been in storage for a while. Talking to him a couple of days ago, he was describing his experience with ported cylinder heads and flowbench results. He said that he has flow-tested several ported heads, and that all of them have excellent flow on the intake side, but not nearly as good on the exhaust side. It seems that flow on the exhaust side is the limiting factor on these heads (I'm not sure of the casting numbers or letter codes for the heads he was describing). I can't wait to get a chance to get up to his shop (maybe next week or weekend).
I have seen a couple of photos of the CNC intake manifolds as described above. They are definitely works of art, and there's nothing like a set of Webers on a full-race 4-banger for that "Cool Factor".
Regarding ignition systems, what are the popular, modern systems to use for these engines? My experience back in the 80's indicated that the OEM distributors were not known for either their precision or high levels of reliability. Without doing any research, is it safe to assume that there's some kind of crank-triggered fully electronic system that is more common for higher HP and rpm levels (maybe something like an MSD box and optical trigger system)?
Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback and input as I try to learn as much as I can in as quick a time frame as possible.
Thanks again,
Steve
Well, on a turbo car the exhaust ports are.. not the main exhaust restriction, since the turbo is.Having said that, you're right that the exhaust ALWAYS flows much worse than the intake on these heads although that is generally true on most motors.
If your guy has a fix for that you should take him up on it, but otherwise it is just something you will have to work around like everyone else. The 'advantage' you will have vs the majority of this forum who are running turbos, is that you can make the cam bigger and nastier to make up for crap headflow as long as you can safely keep revving. There's really nobody on this forum that i know of with a true high-rpm 8v turbo build (there are two or three 2.2 guys here who shift well over 7000 if that helps) so you will not be able to get much 8v-specific high-rpm n/a cam help here that isnt just based on general concepts. Most of the really strong n/a setups ever built for these motors were done back when people were intimidated by and didn't understand turbos and fuel injection and much of that knowledge is either lost or rests with a small number of people, and i dont know who they are.
Dont push the red button.You hear me?
Warren Stramer might be your best bet for advice on high rpm 8V valvetrain stuff. He seems to have that licked pretty well.
There is enough meat in the block to go to 1/2" headbolts (I have a friend that has done it), but it really isn't needed. Any of the turbo blocks will suite your purposes just fine.
I was also thinking about how possible it would be to run the 2.0L Neon crank in one of our engines. Yes, it would require work, but I don't think it's impossible.
The best thing about fuel injection is that it is easy to plug in a computer and fiddle with it to compensate for things and get the tune just right everywhere in the engine operation range. The worst thing about fuel injection is that it's easy to plug in a computer.....
If you are familiar with, and comfortable with carbs, then I say stick with them as they will do exactly what you need without having to learn new stuff along the way.
For ignition, I've seen this done so many ways. I'd look at something like Electromotive. It'll give you the power, adjustability, and robustness that you are looking for. I'm sure there are other systems out there, but that one is tried and true and I know it works very well.
I really like LSR stuff, so I'm rooting for you! I'm not going to say it's easy, because it's not, but I think you very well might be onto a combination to go record hunting!
Thank you, Reaper. I have a TON of stuff to learn about these engines. I'll do some research on Warren Stramer, as I'm fairly new to this game.
It's good to know that the blocks have enough material to support up to 1/2" headbolts. That information may come in handy some day, especially on a boosted engine. My sense is that 11mm studs/bolts might be enough for a naturally aspirated engine, but my sense may very well be wrong.
Electronic fuel injection and ignition tuning would certainly be a learning curve. The good news is that there are a lot of people doing EFI tuning. Finding the right system and the right person would be critical.
I'll definitely be keeping up to date on this project. As I mentioned earlier, I am committed to running the 1.5L diesel setup that's currently in the Rampage, at least until next August, or until it blows up (whichever comes first). After that, there are a couple of more opportunities for "pavement based" LSR racing for the rest of 2014. That's where I would look to start running with a different drivetrain.
Steve.
Quick update - I spent about 3 hours with Bill Lambros today - that guy is a real ocean of knowledge on all things FWD Mopar. We didn't get up to his shop, but he came down and checked out my Rampage as we did plenty of bench racing. As the stories flowed, I could see that a lot of the details were coming right back to him, and the guy absolutely knows his stuff. The next meeting will be at his shop to take a look at all the goodness there. I'm riding pretty high right now, having daydreams and visions of a screaming 2 liter "production" engine under the hood of my Rampage for starters.
Steve.
There is some chance that you may "flip your sh1t" when you see all the stuff he's got.
Dont push the red button.You hear me?
It's quite likely. Exotic heads, exotic blocks, pistons, rods, cranks, suspension stuff, injection stuff, data acquisition, complete race cars, engine dyno, flowbench..... you know, just everyday stuff.
Bill is a great guy and knows these things like the back of his hand. He's been around literally forever. He's not as active as he once was, but he's still very helpful.
About the headbolts, I know most everyone in the turbo community just sticks with 11mm ARP hardware. I think the only reason my friend did the larger size was due to cost. IIRC he used V8 hardware for an old Hemi or something and it was half the cost to buy the V8 stuff and get 2 sets, than the single set of 4-cylinder stuff.
As in Lambros Race Engineering? Those guys were at the top of 2.2 developement back in the 80's(along with Koffel's Place). I wish I had a resource like him close.
You are correct, the lower row head bolts from a Hemi can be used on a 2.2 if the block is tapped for them. Those were one of the first high performance mods to be done. At the time they were the only high quality fastener available that was close to the size needed for the 2.2.
If you found the right Hot Rod Speed Secrets book Jetmugg, there are a few pics of Koffel's Place parts in there too. I remember a pic of one of the very first 2.2 Adj Cam gear's, like 15 years ago I somehow ended up with one, they are crazy difficult to adjust but I still have it on an early build motor somewhere
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Yep, I just received the book today, and saw pics of Koffel's, and one of the LRE Chargers. Bill was talking about the adjustable cam gears - says he has some engineering notes about them back at his shop. He's a very knowledgeable guy, and we hit it off pretty well. We are both engineers by profession, so there was a lot to talk about.
Steve.
Well, the stars aligned for a few hours under a full moon last night, and I met Bill Lambros at his shop. All I can say is WOW! The sheer volume of knowledge contained in his head, combined with his collection of parts is eye-opening. We haven't worked out all the details, but the possibilities look very promising for us to team up for some LSR attempts in the near future.
Steve
The hard part is figuring out which of his camshafts to use. I'm pretty sure that your enthusiasm is going to rekindle his enthusiasm. That monster in the shop is the original Carter Carburetor dyno.
I'm pretty sure he has the fever again, and has enough parts to test just about any 2.2 based engine that someone could dream up. That in-shop dyno can be a fantastic tool for checking all kinds of combinations, from mild to wild.
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