Four turbos gone bad

**turbovanman²** · 10-20-2013, 02:16 AM

What is your oil pressure using a real gauge?

Many have run what you've done with no problems, If you upgraded to the 360 deg thrust bearing, you'll be fine.

Surge is bad, sounds like a hissing snake, my 60 trim did it on my TIII engine-

**5DIGITS** · 10-20-2013, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by turbovanman²

What is your oil pressure using a real gauge? Many have run what you've done with no problems, If you upgraded to the 360 deg thrust bearing, you'll be fine.
Surge is bad, sounds like a hissing snake, my 60 trim did it on my TIII engine-

Good find, Simon.
This is an extreme case and also comes with the audible cavitation and both combined can fail this turbo in an extremely short period of time, regardless of a 360 plate or elevated oil pressure.
When its this severe it can be caught and corrected while milder cases will be a silent and slower death, to a turbo.

Again, nice post.

**supercrackerbox** · 08-08-2014, 04:20 AM

Any updates? Was the issue resolved?

**minigts** · 08-08-2014, 08:26 PM

Yeah I'd like to know as well.

**supercrackerbox** · 08-12-2014, 01:46 PM

Ok, well here's my situation. Last spring right before my GLHS project stalled, I was rebuilding the stock turbo for it. Per advice from another thread in here, I ported the compressor and turbine housings to hopefully improve the output. At this time, I was driving the Charger, which was starting to smoke quite a bit. I assumed it was the turbo. Then I came to the realization that with the better port job and +1mm valves, the GLHS might make better use of the Super 60 that was on the Charger, and this ported stocker should go on the Charger.

Brief rundown of the Charger:
Ported head- I don't know what it flows, but I do know the intake ports were opened up to within a couple millimeters of the gasket. Stock valves.
Taft Stage 1 cam with PT lifters
Ported exhaust manifold, untouched 2-piece intake
Full 3" exhaust from the turbo all the way back
XS Power FMIC (Spearco knock-off)
TU Super 60 with .63 a/r hot side, 2.5" outlet, large can wastegate

Now this combination had been running reliably for several years, since '09 in fact. Well when the ported stock turbo went on, the difference in spool time really woke the car up, and made it really fun to drive again. But within about 1500 miles, the turbo self destructed. It even broke the turbine wheel clean off the shaft. I assumed I'd screwed up something in the rebuild. Yes, I did have it balanced by the diesel shop that sold me the rebuild kit.

Fast forward to December. I had the GLHS's fresh shortblock in the corner, I'd acquired a rebuildable core for the turbo, and I'd discovered the smoking was actually due to a cracked valve seal. I decided the Charger was due for a complete refresh. I swapped my ported housings onto the TII cartridge and sent them out for a proper rebuild, new oil line, and new inline filter. Head went to the machine shop for new guides and a valve job, and it all went together in May. Fresh head, fresh shortblock, fresh turbo. What could go wrong?

I have less than 1000 miles on this new engine, and it's smoking BAD. The turbo has already failed again. Flow-wise, the only thing that should have changed is that I opened up the intake plenum for a 52mm throttle body. Otherwise, aside from everything being fresh, it's really the same engine as before. Oil pressure is 60psi cold, 20 hot. 17psi boost, and everything is mechanically sound.

Now this thread makes me think that the turbo is simply too small for my setup. The guy that rebuilt the turbo says there's no possible way I'm overspinning, and it has to be an oil issue. I will pull off the drain tube and confirm, but I assure you that it's not an oiling issue. All the oil is going out my exhaust afterall. What do you guys think?

FWIW, I have no idea how to read a compressor map. They're just some weird lines and meaningless numbers to me, so give me the dumbed down version.

**cordes** · 08-12-2014, 01:53 PM

What boost level are you running? Do you have a rough idea of how much power you're making?

**wallace** · 08-12-2014, 04:56 PM

Have you done a leakdown test? How do you have the pcv setup?

**turbovanman²** · 08-12-2014, 05:43 PM

Its not the turbo, I oversped mine for years. The oil flow isn't there IE restriced oil line or the balancing job isn't very good. What oil pressure do you have? What oil are you using?

**trannybuster** · 08-12-2014, 06:48 PM

^^ I agree. You need to pull the entire oiling system off from the turbo to the block and inspect all off it. I have a stocker Ive beat the snot out of it for years, in fact its the original turbo from my GLHS, if anyone can get a turbo to fail besides Simon its probably me.

**turbovanman²** · 08-12-2014, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by trannybuster

^^ I agree. You need to pull the entire oiling system off from the turbo to the block and inspect all off it. I have a stocker Ive beat the snot out of it for years, in fact its the original turbo from my GLHS, if anyone can get a turbo to fail besides Simon its probably me.

Why thank you.

**cordes** · 08-12-2014, 08:27 PM

I'm not sure I agree that it must be oiling. I've spun turbos to the moon for a while with good success too. However, the efficiency gained by porting a turbine housing and some of the knowledge which has come about in the past few years moves you way to the right on the compressor map. look at the slope of the RPM lines as you go to the right past the boundary. Nearly vertical slope there.

**tryingbe** · 08-12-2014, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by supercrackerbox

Brief rundown of the Charger:
Ported head- I don't know what it flows, but I do know the intake ports were opened up to within a couple millimeters of the gasket. Stock valves.
Taft Stage 1 cam with PT lifters
Ported exhaust manifold, untouched 2-piece intake
Full 3" exhaust from the turbo all the way back
XS Power FMIC (Spearco knock-off)
TU Super 60 with .63 a/r hot side, 2.5" outlet, large can wastegate

What BOV and what cat?

**supercrackerbox** · 08-13-2014, 04:13 AM

First off, I should have pointed out that I know the turbo is shot because it has over 1/4" radial play, and sounds like a 1970s kitchen mixer.

Boost is at 17-18 psi according to my ten year old VDO gauge. Read what you want into that. I could put a new gauge on to double check, but the car no longer boosts.

Power level is unknown. The one and only time I've had it on a dyno, it put down 214 whp @ 16psi, but the cylinder head was swapped shortly after for the current ported one. I can say that the head swap completely changed the personality of the car for the better. That was also with the Super 60.

I have not done a leakdown or a compression test. The PCV setup is as follows: Stock rubber Y fitting off the valve cover with a Mopar PCV valve. Bottom leg runs into the intake pipe as it would factory. The valve itself is plumbed to a catch can mounted on the firewall, with a check-valved vacuum pull directly off the intake plenum. This keeps it in constant vacuum, be it from the manifold or the CAI, and the check valve keeps it from being pressurized under boost. I've run this setup without issue for 4 years now, and I drain the can and inspect the system every oil change.

Oil pressure was stated above: 60psi cold, 20psi hot on the new engine. Old engine was only slightly less. Oil was Valvoline 5w30 conventional for the break in and now has Brad Penn 10w30. The reason I question an oiling issue is this: The old engine ran with the Super 60 for 8 years, easily over 40k miles without failing. Swapped the turbo, with NO other changes, and that turbo failed within 1500 miles. As I said, I assumed I screwed up something assembling the turbo. But with the new engine, new oil line, and a professionally rebuilt turbo, it failed even faster. That's a hell of a coincidence. Yes, the block was cleaned inside and out after the machine work to the point of being practically sanitary, as was the oil distribution block. The oil pump was primed with a drill before initial startup in the same manner as all my engines. For reference, the engine in my Daytona has just over 90,000 miles on it now and running strong, and the engine from my old CSXT is still alive and well in its fourth car since I assembled it in 2003. I know how to properly assemble an engine.

BOV is a Turbo XS RFL (not a knock off) which has been cleaned and inspected and functions flawlessly. And we don't run cats in Nebraska.

Cordes, like I said before, I don't know how to read compressor maps. I'm mathematically and technologically challenged. Hell, I couldn't dial 911 from my girlfriend's "smart" phone if my life depended on it. But I do know how to assemble an engine.

**tryingbe** · 08-13-2014, 08:16 AM

Is there a oil restrictor used inline with the oil feed line?

Pictures of EVERYTHING?

60psi cold, 20psi hot on the new engine.

That doesn't mean much, as you can block off the oil feed to the turbo and still get that reading.

I know the turbo is shot because it has over 1/4" radial play

That sounds like you have enough back exhaust pressure that prevent oil to get to the shaft in the rear.

I have not done a leakdown or a compression test. The PCV setup is as follows: Stock rubber Y fitting off the valve cover with a Mopar PCV valve. Bottom leg runs into the intake pipe as it would factory. The valve itself is plumbed to a catch can mounted on the firewall, with a check-valved vacuum pull directly off the intake plenum. This keeps it in constant vacuum, be it from the manifold or the CAI, and the check valve keeps it from being pressurized under boost. I've run this setup without issue for 4 years now, and I drain the can and inspect the system every oil change.

Normally, people run either the PCV valve or the check valve but no both, since PCV itself is a check valve. I wouldn't say you have no issue for 4 years, as you had 2 dead turbos. You have to treat everything as a suspect at this point.

There is no vacuum in your CAI. Try it, plug the hose with your finger and tell me if you feel any suction.

**cordes** · 08-13-2014, 11:36 AM

This guy won't be doing serious news any time soon, but it's a good video.

**86Shelby** · 08-13-2014, 11:50 AM

Here's a quick way to read the compressor map, this is just a general guideline.

The pressure ratio on the right side is the number of atmospheres of pressure; 1.0= atmospheric pressure no boost or vacuum, 2.0=14psi boost.
The lb/min is the amount of airflow the compressor puts out; 10lb/min is about 100 hp worth of airflow.

Now look at where the factory TII setups show on that map. 175hp @ 12 psi. So we look just below the 2.0 for pressure and then at 17 for the lb/min; those lines intersect right in the sweet spot for the map with 75% efficiency with the compressor spinning about 109k rpm.

Figure a car is making 250hp at 21psi. The turbo is on the edge of the 70% efficiency island and now spinning about 143k rpm. The turbo is not as efficient at this point and heating the air more than it was with stock power levels & boost.

Edit: Thanks for posting that video Cordes.

**cordes** · 08-13-2014, 01:01 PM

An important aspect of this to keep in mind is the pressure drop through the core of the IC too. A lot of guys have TII cars with an efficient enough system to make good power on the stock intercooler. You'll need to add 4-5PSI at 18PSI manifold pressure to see where you're really at on the map.

**supercrackerbox** · 08-13-2014, 01:38 PM