MECHANICAL fuel injection (Hilborn, etc)

[iTurbo]

I have searched the forums and have found VERY little information regarding mechanical fuel injection setups. I have a mechanical fuel injection setup here that I've been kicking around the idea of actually using. It uses a Hilborn injection manifold with individual throttle bodies, belt-driven fuel pump, mechanical fuel injectors, as well as a few different fuel pressure regulators.

I'm primarilly starting this thread for fact gathering and maybe even ideas/pointers on how to tune the system. From what I have been able to gather so far, it is primarily tuned for maximum WOT performance with driveability being a secondary concern at best. Seems this system is best suited to drag racing, land speed racing etc.. but I would love to learn more about it even if it isn't exactly 2.2/2.5 Chrysler based.

[shadow88]

Sounds cool! Got any details on the pump, throttle body size, belt design for the pump? Any pictures? What's the application?

[iTurbo]

I have a few pics that I can post now. This system came with a 16v Masi setup that I bought from a guy that was going to go land speed racing at Bonneville with it. I did not get the all-important manifold/head adapter with it so I am currently unable to bolt it to any cylinder head. I imagine I will also have to figure out how to make a bracket to mount the belt-driven fuel pump.

Looking at the port shape of the head-side of the injection manifold (4 D-shape ports), I suspect that this was meant more for the 8v SOHC heads than the Masi 16v head with it's 8 round intake ports. I would love to find somebody that could make an adapter for this to be run with the Masi 16v head, but it would be a one-off part and very expensive and VERY hard to find somebody to entertain the idea of actually making that part.

[Unacceptable]

1957 called, they want their unreliable Corvette back.

[iTurbo]

^ LOL. You may be right, I may be crazy. But it just might be a lunatic this project is looking for.

Years ago I remember working as a pizza delivery driver for Dominos and I had delivered pizza to a guy that had a 70s Camaro with the Hilborn setup on it. It was most definitely a drag-race built car to say the least. I wish I could pick that guys brain now..

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm.... what about converting to EFI? I just remembered seeing these a while back:

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=FUL

Otherwise I would have to have somebody fab up a fuel rail for me as well as the manifold adapter. The intake port spacing does seem to be the same for all the turbo Mopar heads; 8v, TIII, Masi 16v etc, thankfully.

[Unacceptable]

Well that's the thing about that fuel injection. The '57 Corvette made GREAT power for it's era. The problems it had came to daily driving ability. Cold starting was bad, cold weather driveability suffered. Altitude compensation suffered. That's why it got a bad rap and was abandoned, for the most part. Funny enough, Bosch picked up the technology, and 20 years later CIS started appearing on German cars.
I don't have any experience with the EFI you mentioned. You can't just use the stock EFI?

[iTurbo]

I would love to use the stock EFI setup. The mechanical injection setup looks like a huge PITA to tune and deal with. The link I posted to the ATP injector mount would let me install stock-like injectors and should make it possible to replace the mechanical injectors with electronic fuel injectors. The Hilborn injection manifold will definitely have to be modified; but I don't think that will be too complicated. It would allow me to use the high flowing ITB manifold and get away from using the belt driven fuel pump and complicated regulator setup. Best of both worlds!

In the end I would LOVE to use this on the Masi 16v setup that the previous owner/builder of this setup was planning. I think he was onto something really good, even though I can't say that I'm going to go land speed racing like he was. But it should be a great drag racing setup I would think, especially in an Omni GLH and converted to stockish EFI with a custom tune.

Now if I could only find somebody that would be willing to make an adapter plate to go from the Hilborn ITB to the Masi 16v head! I know of a few people on this forum that are more than capable of making such a part. The fact that the injectors will remain in the Hilborn ITB should make it easier, since the adapter wouldn't have to be made/machined with injector bungs. It would have to transition from the 4 'D' ports to 8 round ports though, so it may be too complicated to be practical.

I know there are adapter plates that were made by Hilborn to use with the 8v head, so maybe this setup is best left to using it with that setup. Most Hilborn mech injection setups use velocity stacks in a N/A setup. Instead of velocity stacks, I would surely need some sort of plenum to use this in a turbo application. The previous owner of this setup was going to use a Garret T67 with this. I wish I knew what he had in mind to make this happen.

[83scamp]

Try these guys:

http://foxinjection.com/hilborn-enderle-efi-kits.html

I just found them a few days ago while looking for some weber side draft info. They can probably fix you right up.

[turismolover22]

Talk to acannell, screename. I believe hes on this site, hes got a huge thread on the other about building and designing intakes. He could whip the adapters up pretty easy. Hes already got a design to go from the square d port on the 8v head to a circular entry, this should be a cakewalk for him.

[ShadowFromHell]

I would do what a lot of hotrod guys are doing with their hilborns. They use them to hide a standalone efi system. Still has that look but are streetable. Head over to jalopyjournal.com there are more people using hilborn injection over there then anywhere else on the web. There is a HUGE thread on how to tune them. Just don't tell them what you are putting the motor in, as the site is for pre-64 hotrods and are sticklers about it.

[Rrider]

Nobody makes a masi intake flange? I'd meebe get some stainless exhaust tubing and take my time tacking an adapter up.

[iTurbo]

So far I have not seen a Masi 16v intake flange anywhere. I've heard of one being on eBay at one point, but I missed it. I also just got an email from Hilborn saying that they could not build the plate needed for an 8v head. I knew a Masi intake adapter would have to be fabbed, but I had asked them if they could remake an 8v plate and apparently that is no longer possible either.

Thanks for the suggestions! I will try to get ahold of acannell. I imagine making an adapter plate will necessitate a Masi intake manifold flange to start with.

[Reaper1]

I have a friend that knows quite a bit about Hilborn style fuel injection. Maybe I can get him to contact you when you are ready to mess with it. He was around racing when that stuff was really popular and I know he's used it and set it up in the past.

[iTurbo]

So far, I've learned enough about mechanical fuel injection to pretty much scare me away from it. I really like the idea of converting a Hilborn ITB setup to electronic fuel injection though. The driveability factor is really important to me; probably even more so than all-out WOT performance. It is neat to see what engineers were able to come up with before the advent of EFI though. Unfortunately here in Wyoming I don't get to see much of this kind of thing at car shows, and the nearest drag strip is over 100 miles away. Like a lot of things, if I only knew more about it then I might consider it a viable option. Tuning a mechanical injection system WITH turbo must be a friggin nightmare, especially if you want to decent cruise/idle characteristics. You'd have to have "Q" from Star Trek to tune that setup with good results.

[strang3majik]

There's a guy named Shelby on Starquestclub.com (Chrysler conquest/Mitsubishi starion forum) that used to drag race a hilborn injected car back in the 60s. Not sure if you're on there at all but he'd be one to pick the brain of.

[tkelly27]

You would be better off selling the mechanical injection system to a collector and getting a set of bike throttles with fuel injector bosses then adapting it to a 1 piece IM. As cool as mech FI is, it will never run as good as electronic fuel injection.

[iTurbo]

Yeah, I'm definitely looking at all my options and probably will be for a while yet. It doesn't look like it will be too hard to modify the Hilborn unit so that EFI fuel injector bungs can be put in place of the threaded mechanical injector ports. I've started talking to a couple different people that have the means to make this work. Depending on their recommendation I might end up going ahead with it or scrapping the idea altogether (Masi 16v with Hilborn ITB converted to EFI). Hell, even in N/A form with velocity stacks it would be fun as hell.

I guess what I'm really after is a very unique setup with the potential for major power output. Would love to have this in my Omni GLH someday (and show off at SDAC!), but practicality is something that may rule out in the end.

[iTurbo]

I was looking all over the internet tonight, trying to find different inline four cylinder DOHC heads that also had the individual intake ports, like our Masi 16v. I found an interesting link from VWVortex regarding "Drake" cylinder heads for the older 2.0L 16v VW motors. It is a Hans Hermann design cylinder head VERY closely resembling the turbo Mopar variety of prototype HH head such as '86 GLHS #001 got.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...heads-for-sale

This head is the only other design I've found that uses individual round intake ports like the Masi 16v uses. There are also pictures of a Hilborn mechanical fuel injection manifold for the "Drake" that allows the four individual throttle bodies to split into the individual runners. Sure wish I could find something like that for my own project, although radiator/fan clearance would turn into a big issue unless the runners were as short as possible.

[Reaper1]

Wow....it's amazing how close those look to the Masi and HH head. It was said that the HH head used some VW parts, I wonder if this head is what it could use parts off of? The similarities are just incredible!

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

regarding the hillborn 2.2 throttle body
I don't think you need some sort of manifold adapter to mount it

no , just a drill bit and a tap .. and 12 holes drilled into the head

a different route I've been considering

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/products2/tw...mm-pair-tspxxi

they fit the sidedraft manifolds and include an injector / fuel rail mount
-click on the PDF below the pic in the link

(note a weber side draft manifold will not fit with a TU ex manifold as the lowest carb mount bolt bung hits and due to the steped design of the ex manny the closer you get to cylinder #4 the more it interfears - it would fit with a cryco ex manny)

if it all fits together , cutting the mount flange off the little weber manifolds and the back half of a two piece intake's bottom , at around the rear fuel rail mount bolt

it would require a remote idle speed motor and a tube run between the runners to ballance the vacume signal and provide a vacume source

from what I've read , manifolds that use multiple sepperated carbs or throttle bodies benifit from having a "ballance tube" joining the runners

there are bungs on top of each runner on the weber manifold
a banjo fitting threaded into each with a tube run across the runners , through each banjo fitting would possiablely work
- but I haven't looked into IF it would clear the two piece's fuel rail as it would probably be close , being in the same basic location

or deleate the AIS and use the weber flow meter tool to set up the throttle bodies though I think sourceing vacume from only one runner might be a huge mistake

useing the weber manifolds for the flange would give you the bosses for the throttle linkage and the bungs for vacume source
-also , the weber manifolds will give you the needed transision from the weber bore spaceing to the 2.2 port spaceing
and , at around the point of the rear fuel rail bolt on the 2 piece , the runners line up about right with the weber manifolds

this also solves the curve towards center between runner 2 and 3 on the two piece and straightens out the runners
this is also needed to link the two Jenvey throttle bodies like a pair of weber carbs