1990 Consulier GTP Targa

[Reaper1]

From the understanding perspective it is better to do the research and post instead of posting that you think it is a bad idea with no background. This is a common topic that isn't hard to find information on.
-Rich

Rich, I'm not trying to start any kind of argument. From a real-world set-up standpoint, you have more experience than I do. From a technical and theoretical standpoint we understand each other on the same level (at least that's the way I view it, however maybe I'm lagging). The background I'm missing is I don't know the detailed dimensions of the suspension. I'm simply making the statement that swapping parts because they work on our cars doesn't mean it will work the same for these cars. I'm also saying it *could* work, just that in my opinion (which means diddly because I don't own any of these cars), I'd at least run it through the basic suspension stuff you just posted to see what would happen...especially since it directly affects what brake options you have to work with.

Johnny's already done it and he's going to see what happens. I'm curious as well!

Maybe this is one of those cases where theory only means so much and the real world reveals the true end result.

[Johnny]

Connected all the new water hoses. Added water.

And the next day I see a fitting on the far passenger side is broke and all the water pours out of it.
This hose/fitting comes from the fill tank.
Took the radiator out (only 4 bolts and two hoses) and am taking it to the radiator shop to have it looked at.

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Oh and after starting the car (after the oil change) and checking the oil, it doesnt show on the dip stick...added another quart. Start it and turn it right back off.
Also the oil pressure did not go up, so re-checked the dipstick.
I had put in another 4 quarts to have it at the correct mark. The oil cooler and lines hold a lot it seems.

[rbryant]

Rich, I'm not trying to start any kind of argument. From a real-world set-up standpoint, you have more experience than I do. From a technical and theoretical standpoint we understand each other on the same level (at least that's the way I view it, however maybe I'm lagging). The background I'm missing is I don't know the detailed dimensions of the suspension. I'm simply making the statement that swapping parts because they work on our cars doesn't mean it will work the same for these cars. I'm also saying it *could* work, just that in my opinion (which means diddly because I don't own any of these cars), I'd at least run it through the basic suspension stuff you just posted to see what would happen...especially since it directly affects what brake options you have to work with.

Cars almost always have their center of mass higher than the roll center.
The only way that your concern could have merit is if the roll center is already at or above the center of mass.

In that case the lowering the ball joint could cause the roll center to be slightly above the center of mass and it would make the car lean into corners (where most cars lean away from corners)....

I really doubt that the roll center is that close to the center of mass. Lowering the car also has the opposite affect on the angles as the lower ball joint so the roll center can be adjusted slightly with ride height. The roll center just gets worse as a car is lowered so the taller ball joint helps and is desirable.

Johnny's already done it and he's going to see what happens. I'm curious as well!

He used the '89 spindles that don't change the geometry so it won't show any differences.


-Rich

[Johnny]

I took the radiator in and the guy said it looks like he can fix it up and should have it ready for me next week sometime.
Ordered a new master cylinder, will have that tomorrow.
BUT wont have time to work on it, have too much work to do until at least Wednesday.

[2fast2dodge]

I'm curious, I've had a lot of 90's FWD cars and vans and the only spindles that have the brake caliper adapters as part of the casting were 96 newer NS minivans?
Or was this late model Daytona only? Even my 93 Car FSM only shows the older style bolt on adapter style.

[GLHNSLHT2]

90 and older with 11" front brakes had 1 piece castings on the vans. It's funny that from 91 to 95 they had the 2 piece then in 96 went back to molding them to 1 piece setups. I've been meaning to grab a set and measure them against the earlier spindles to see how they match up. I'm curious if they'd give us the option of having lightweight spindles with a lower ball joint.

[Johnny]

Got my radiator back today. Cost me $120 for a rod it out job and fix a fitting that was broken off...and paint.
The radiator is 5 foot long.
Also bought a 3" mandrel exhaust piece to do a new exhaust system someday.

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He said it was in pretty good shape.

[Johnny]

Got the radiator in. Installed the new master cylinder and bled the brakes. Still not right, and the "brake" light is on, too.
Going to try again tomorrow morning. Have an appointment to have the front end aligned in the late afternoon....I want it working before that.
Wonder what specs to have it set to.....

[GLHNSLHT2]

did you get any specs from Mosler? I'd probably start out at -1.0 in the front, and -0.5 in the back and go from there. I'd have to hunt back through the threads for suspension pics to say anymore.

[zin]

...Still not right, and the "brake" light is on, too.

Sounds like maybe the combination valve shifted when bleeding the brakes, if it has, then one side of the brake system will be "sealed off" as if there were a broken line and the light will light up.

Should be able to re-set it by shifting it back to the middle, either at the valve or by reversing the pressure difference that caused the shift.

Mike

[2fast2dodge]

Could also have a partial blockage in a line. Sometimes pressing hard on the pedal in a rapid fashion helps push the balance valve back into position.
Another trick would be to use a bleeder at the calipers and force fluid back thru the system from each corner. I personally don't care for this practice in general due to the risk of contaminating the master cylinder. Non ABS systems are less likely to pose problems, no decay or build valves to worry about. I would think that since you have replaced calipers and master you would be ok. I have had to remove and clean the combo valves before when water has caused the valve to stick remember the water absorbed by the fluid will migrate to the lowest point and cause rust and corrosion where ever it sits!

[Johnny]

Where is this valve?... in the distribution block?

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Took the Super Trap off, sound fine without it.
Took both seats out and cleaned/vacuumed and then also oiled the tracks.
Found an interesting piece of paper under one mat.
Behind the drivers front turn signal is where the washer fluid bottle is located.
Strange, you have to remove the signal to fill it.
Added the front turn signals and the back brake lights.
Added premium fuel.
Got the trunk area cleaned up and the cover on.
Took it in to town and got the alignment this afternoon.
WELL, it runs and drives now.
Corners....wow. It sticks!!!! And a much better car going down the
road than I thought it would be. Our road is bumpy and the car is
just fine. I love it!
When I got gas, wow does it get attention. And at the tire store getting it aligned
it was even getting it's photo taken by a couple people.

[zin]

Sounds like the fun never stops cruising the Consulier!

That valve is part of the "distribution" block, assuming it is using a factory type block ... should have a single wire attached and a small rubber "boot" with a silver pin looking thing showing through the middle.

That's where you can install the "special" tool that holds the valve from shifting when bleeding the brakes.

Mike

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Sounds like the fun never stops cruising the Consulier!

That valve is part of the "distribution" block, assuming it is using a factory type block ... should have a single wire attached and a small rubber "boot" with a silver pin looking thing showing through the middle.

That's where you can install the "special" tool that holds the valve from shifting when bleeding the brakes.

Mike

[Johnny]

Thanks Mike!

I went to my PO Box that is about 9 miles away in the Consulier this morning.
I was traveling about 50 mph, but the speedo said about 100 mph...and the
odometer was clicking off like it was going 100 mph.

Ever had this issue with a car?

[Reaper1]

Doesn't this car have the ABS system on it? If so, you may need to find out how to correctly bleed it as some of the older ABS systems were funky.

[Johnny]

Some of them, mine included, has something called "Brake Gurd". It just stops the spike when someone hits the brakes hard. They have a Bleed on them. And I did bleed them both.

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I am wondering if one of the SpeedBleeders is not working.

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While at the alignment shop yesterday.

[GLHNSLHT2]

what specs did you set it to?

[Johnny]

I asked for 1/2 degree negative camber per side
and 1/16" total toe in

They got pretty close.

[GLHNSLHT2]

on all 4 corners?


I'd love to take one of these down to my local Les Schwabs. I always get the "This is not a race car shop" line when I take my cars in there

[Reaper1]

When I go to have alignments done I always go talk with the tech. I give them $10 before they even start to work on the car and another $10 after. After turning wrenches for a living I know how that actually helps. I've never had an alignment that was off from what I wanted after I started doing that.