Proof torque for 11mm head bolts?

[going4speed]

A turbo dodge engine that I own been run? Oh the hilarity!!! No it's not been run.

Just figured while it's fresh I could pull the bolts with all the issues people seem to have with the felpro's.

Plus it's a statue in my garage. I've never driven this car and owned it three years now. Again, the hilarity.

Why would you think you need to pull them? If you do decide to pull them, the engine has to be cold. The bolts should be removed in opposite order. Question then is will the gasket stay sealed? If the engine has been run I think that's a gamble.

[Vigo]

Reusing bolts? That's nothing! I reused an MP headgasket 3 times and only had it leak (above a certain boost level) on the 4th use, BUT... it was with 10mm headbolts and some of them had failed.

I've noticed over the years of ALWAYS reusing stock head bolts (I've never bought a set) that the 10mm are FAR more likely to 'fail' than the 11mm. That was something I was curious about and was sort of testing, and that's the conclusion I came to.

I haven't looked, but if someone sells a 10mm head stud kit it would probably be fine and i'd be willing to use that rather than tapping for 11mm. I think the strength of the threads and a non-tty bolt in that size is fine for the application. I think it's just the stock bolts that are iffy.

I've had some used 11mm fail too, but if I had to guess it would be something like 5% rather than something like 30% for the 10mm bolts. I've been using the 90lbft 'proof' torque to check, but as said you can feel when it's failing in the 90* turn, so the proof torque more often than not is more reassurance that the other ones are ok, than the thing that finds the problem. My arm finds the problem.

I like Gary D's idea of setting the wrench to 90 (or 105 etc) BEFORE doing the 90 turn so that you are checking DURING the tightening. Just seems more time efficient. I have never done that before.

[mopar-tech]

I like Gary D's idea of setting the wrench to 90 (or 105 etc) BEFORE doing the 90 turn so that you are checking DURING the tightening. Just seems more time efficient. I have never done that before.

Its important to do it on the final 90 degree turn as "starting torque" can give you a false reading.

I find it VERY reliable.

[GLHS60]

I always torque heads in 10 ft/lb. increments starting at 35, takes a few minutes longer but well worth it in my experience. I only go to 95 and 85 at the corner bolts and discard any "stretchy" bolts. I never torque to yield, or the 1/4 turn after 65, I go in increments only.

I can feel any stretchy bolts along the way and swap if necessary. I also have a box of used bolts to choose from, my new set is still in the package hanging on the wall.

As to re torquing, I like to start checking at a lower # than the final to determine where I'm at. Some people loosen the bolts and re torque but I've never done that.

Just my .05, we don't use cents here any more.

Thanks
Randy

[going4speed]

slight deviation: What is everyone using for torque wrenches? My 1996 craftsman is probably not very accurate anymore.

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

wouldn't loosening a torque to yield bolt and retightening count as a second use of the bolt ?

I'd have to think it would - and probably dosen't do much for confirming the torque on the bolt

[mopar-tech]

slight deviation: What is everyone using for torque wrenches? My 1996 craftsman is probably not very accurate anymore.

Snap-On

- - - Updated - - -

wouldn't loosening a torque to yield bolt and retightening count as a second use of the bolt ?

I'd have to think it would - and probably dosen't do much for confirming the torque on the bolt

I re-use bolts all the time, as long as they hit 100 f/t on the final turn its all good in my book.

[Force Fed Mopar]

You guys are overthinking this way too much. I've done it Gary's way, and just torqued to 65 and 1/4-turned it without checking, never had any issue with the bolts, and I've always used FelPro bolts. Deck prep is much more important in my book. Current set of bolts have been to 25psi a few times with no issue, on a FelPro head gasket to boot...

[GLHS60]

I've heard of a couple of cases where an engine suffered sticking valves after a haphazardly torquing of the head bolts.

I like to take my time and Garys word is gold. Thinking is good!!

Thanks
Randy

[tryingbe]

You guys are overthinking this way too much.

Thinking too much? FSM says the bolts should get above 90 ft lb and half the NEW Fel-Pro bolts didn't.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1092898

[mopar-tech]

I've heard of a couple of cases where an engine suffered sticking valves after a haphazardly torquing of the head bolts.

I like to take my time and Garys word is gold. Thinking is good!!

Thanks
Randy

Always good to have a discussion; some of what I learned has been superseded by newer information (intake manifold advances for example) so not everything I know is as pertinent as it once was.

I enjoy reading about some of the stuff people have done and look forward to doing my own tinkering.

[chryguy]

Another new set of Felpro's,

2 failed to hit 90 lbs...and I'm done with these things. When I torque 'em it feels like Russian roulette with play dough.

What else is available for these engines? Is it true the 3.3 engine uses an identical head bolt?

Anybody use the Victor Reinz bolts? How about Enginetech? ROL?

Thanks in advance...

[Force Fed Mopar]

ARP studs...

[DOHCRT]

One thing to consider here is torque wrench calibration. If you haven't had your wrench calibrated, you have no clue what your actual readings are. If your wrench is reading/clicking low, when you go to do your 90 degree final torque, you will be exceeding the expected torque. Calibration only costs around $40 and you would be surprised what they find.

[Johnny]

2 failed to hit 90 lbs.

What happened then? They break?

w

hen you go to do your 90 degree final torque

During this you should not be using the torque wrench. Use a breaker bar for that final 90 degrees.

[c2xejk]

What happened then? They break?

For me I can usually go well beyond 90 and not have the bolt reach 90ft-lbs... Though, I don't think I have gone beyond another 1/8 -1/4 turn.

During this you should not be using the torque wrench. Use a breaker bar for that final 90 degrees.

A lot of people (myself included) use a torque wrench for that last 90 degrees to verify the bolts are good when reusing them.

[chryguy]

ARP studs or even bolts wouldn't make economical sense for stock engines. I have at least 3 more engines to do after this one.

I have both types of torque wrenches. I've been using an old style beam torque wrench recently. The results are the same between the two. So either they're both "off", or both accurate.

I use the torque wrench to do the final 90 degree turn and observe the torque at the end of that swing. These bolts didn't even make 80 at the end of the 90 degree turn.
Again, FSM says "Bolt torque after 1/4 turn should be over 90 foot pounds. If not, replace bolt."

These new Felpro bolts aren't stretching under the head or in the "shank" portion of the bolt, they're stretching in the threaded portion. You can clearly see the stretched area with a straight edge.

I never had this problem with stock head bolts. Definitely never with MP bolts.

Again, has anybody used anything else?

I ordered a set of 3.3/3.8 bolts per 135sohc, and a set of Victor Reinz bolts...we shall see.

Thanks

[83scamp]

Another new set of Felpro's,

2 failed to hit 90 lbs...and I'm done with these things. When I torque 'em it feels like Russian roulette with play dough.

What else is available for these engines? Is it true the 3.3 engine uses an identical head bolt?

Anybody use the Victor Reinz bolts? How about Enginetech? ROL?

Thanks in advance...

I'm probably going to regret posting this link, but here is my source for genuine OEM Mopar head bolts... I've bought two sets from this guy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/220083263694...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Now watch, next time I need a set, he won't have them....


Oh, and I just used the first set in my Daytona, and they hit the 90lb-ft at about 1/8 turn on the 1/4 turn final stretch...

[2.216VTurbo]

I find it curious that the choice of lubricant used hasn't been brought into this discussion. I think it's the package insert in with the ARP's that lists the varying values when using a moly based lube compared to engine oil. I assume everyone uses just clean oil?

And just because you're using ARP's doesn't make the torqueing immune to fastener failure Clearly this one didn't achieve the specified value

[135sohc]

ARP studs or even bolts wouldn't make economical sense for stock engines. I have at least 3 more engines to do after this one.

I have both types of torque wrenches. I've been using an old style beam torque wrench recently. The results are the same between the two. So either they're both "off", or both accurate.

I use the torque wrench to do the final 90 degree turn and observe the torque at the end of that swing. These bolts didn't even make 80 at the end of the 90 degree turn.
Again, FSM says "Bolt torque after 1/4 turn should be over 90 foot pounds. If not, replace bolt."

These new Felpro bolts aren't stretching under the head or in the "shank" portion of the bolt, they're stretching in the threaded portion. You can clearly see the stretched area with a straight edge.

I never had this problem with stock head bolts. Definitely never with MP bolts.

Again, has anybody used anything else?

I ordered a set of 3.3/3.8 bolts per 135sohc, and a set of Victor Reinz bolts...we shall see.

Thanks

The 3.3 and 3.8 do use the same headbolts as the 2.2 and 2.5... The catch being you have to buy two packs (16 bolts total) to get 10 bolts as the V6 head only needs 8 bolts vs our needing 10.

ALSO something to be aware of... in the past the felpro part number for the V6 head bolts, they were tumble polished and came with the captive washer, just like the headbolts from chrysler as I think they were supplied to federal/felpro by whomever the vendor to chrysler is/was. Maybe 6 months ago when I looked them up again the felpro headbolts for the V6 changed and were the same ones felpro has always sold for the 2.2, the black oxide finish and washers are not included. So they still work but its not as good a deal as it used to be IMO, where you were presumibly getting the OEM vendor headbolts at a decent discount over paying full rip off from the dealer. The V6 headbolt 'option' is out there mostly for the fact that any decent parts store will most likely have a set or two on the shelf if your in a bind and need them now.