Okay now how many of you guys actually have their torque wrenches calibrated on a regular basis or ever? 90 lbs. on my good torque wrench is like 70-75 lbs. on my Micro-torque Craftsman POS. Just sayin...
Okay now how many of you guys actually have their torque wrenches calibrated on a regular basis or ever? 90 lbs. on my good torque wrench is like 70-75 lbs. on my Micro-torque Craftsman POS. Just sayin...
Once a year, I bring mine to the millwork at my work and after 23 years, my snap-on has yet to need any adjustment.Originally Posted by 4 l-bodies
135sohc
Chryslers own service manual tells you to check them for 90ft-lbs minimum after the final torque + 1/4 turn… Not that I put all the weight in the world on those directions.
I have never read that anywhere. Could you show us what manual that came from?
Beam type never needs calibration.
Working on clearing the decks.
'89 FSM makes no mention of this. At any rate, TTY bolts aren't properly installed that way. I own a beam wrench and it was not even close to 90-95ftlbs after a 1/4 turn as I recall w/TTY fasteners. I use ARP studs in that range and that's pretty tight.
Still, don't know what is being checked exactly by taking a TTY bolt past spec? Seems like half of them can't be turned beyond 90ftlbs ... OK, so what does that have to do with the cost of tea in china?
10mm were last used in 1985.
Working on clearing the decks.
Understood ... thought the discussion encompassed 11mm as well.
post #13 shows a partially cutoff copy of the service manual page, chrysler even went as far to bold that step in the directions I guess someone at Highland Park thought it was important enough to mention and emphasize on.
For sure my 1994 manual (thick yellow one that looks like a phone book) has that same page.
The OP made an error in Titling the thread. I corrected the original heading.
1994 Shadow Sedan. 2.2 N/A, A568 400,000 miles. "the science experiment"
1987 Shelby CSX #418. Long term rebuild and restore ?
Yeah Gary you just bend the little pointer back to zero whenever needed (lol). Speakin of beams. One to beam up; energize Scotty
Todd
You can't determine clamp force with a torque wrench if a bolt is in it's plastic range. All you're doing is continuing to twist the bolt till it snaps. By definition a TTY bolt, once installed according to spec, is stretched beyond return already. You can turn it all you please but it won't apply any more clamping force .. it'll just break in two.
I think you might be missing the point.
On the 11mm bolts I do the factory steps and then on the quarter turn I'm not trying to torque to 100 ft/lbs, I'm simply doing the quarter turn no more.
The wrench is set to 100-105 ft/lbs to see if all the bolts I'm installing at least hit that mark during the quarter turn. Usually 9 out of 10 do, the last I'll throw away and get another.
I'll point out the TTY bolts available for these engine have been junk the last several years, the Fel-Pro ones are the worst.
Working on clearing the decks.
I just looked up my 88 and 89 manual, and they both have the 90 ft/lbs proof torque. I'm surprised I had never noticed that before.
More or less.
You have to remember the spring type wrenches are only mimicking what the beam type wrenches do by their nature and construction.
Working on clearing the decks.
I've been running FelPro bolts for quite a few years now, along with their head gasket. No issues yet, rarely proof them, but when I do I think they are in the 90-95lb range. All 11mm though, no experience with 10mm.
Why Federal still makes two different yet the same bolts for the same applications is beyond me but I have found the 3.3/3.8 head bolts seem to be a better quality component than the regular old style ones sold for the 4 cylinders.
1994 Shadow Sedan. 2.2 N/A, A568 400,000 miles. "the science experiment"
1987 Shelby CSX #418. Long term rebuild and restore ?
"Proof torque" of a bolt is the point when the steel goes from the elastic stage to the plastic stage. In the elastic stage a bolt will return to its original length ... in the plastic stage it will not return, it has "yield/stretched" as per design.
Standard bolts relied on a torque reading but that reading doesn't take into account the friction required to turn the bolt. Best guess is that 90% of the reading is due to friction while 10% is additional clamp force. This results in uneven force on the head/gasket ... more bolts would be required to insure a good seal or localized (higher/lower) clamp force would deform the gasket in some areas and not others. As heat cycles mount, leaks rear their head.
A TTY bolt takes friction out of the equation. The torque sequence makes certain that the head/gasket and block are snug. The final 90* turn takes the bolt into the plastic stage. The result is a more even clamping force across the whole deck ... with less bolts. Gaskets aren't deformed, cylinder bores aren't deformed, block threads aren't pulled out, engine reliability goes up. There is no torque wrench reading to check this action. "Human stupidity" is taken out of the equation. <--- not directed at anybody here
Fastener tech advances beyond '90's rule of thumb. I wouldn't expect FelPro or any other maker to stand still. They're going to make all bolts perform in the same manner ... across all makes and models for reliability reasons. Guys that want control over clamping force use studs. They stay elastic and that's why they can be reused over and over. Once a TTY bolt yields it's junk from a reuse standpoint. They aren't a junk product. They do what they are designed to do ... yield. I don't see the point in going through boxes of bolts looking for the "lucky charms".
Well, this is eye opening, I put a head on my car today. I had one box of new Fel-Pro box (10), 10 used Fel-Pro (probably) bolts, and 4 used MP bolts.
First tried, put in the new Fel-Pro bolts, 45 lb, 65 lb, 65 lb, and set the 90 lb on torque wrench and did the final 1/4 turn. 5 out of the 10 new bolts did not reach 90 lb after the 1/4 turn.
Removed the failed ones.
Second try, put in the 5 used bolts, bolt them up to 65 lbs, and set the 90 lb on torque wrench and did the final 1/4 turn. 3 bolts failed. Remove the 3 failed bolts.
Third try, put in the 3 used bolts, bolt them up to 65 lbs, and set the 90 lb on torque wrench and did the final 1/4 turn. 2 bolts failed. Remove the 2 failed bolts.
Forth try, put in the 2 used bolts, bolt them up to 65 lbs, and set the 90 lb on torque wrench and did the final 1/4 turn. 2 bolts failed. Remove the 2 failed bolts.
Fifth try, put in the 2 MP used bolts, bolt them up to 65 lbs, and set the 90 lb on torque wrench and did the final 1/4 turn. Both passed.
So, out of 10 new Fel-Pro, 5 were bad, out of the 10 used Fel-Pro, 7 were bad, only tried the 2 of the 4 MP bolts, both were good. I used 5 new bolts Fel-Pro bolts, 3 used Fel-Pro bolts, and 2 used MP bolts on my head. I threw all the bad Fel-Pro bolts away and kept the MP bolts.
I won't be using anymore Fel-Pro head bolts from now on, you have to buy 3 bolts set just to be sure you can get 1 good set, not economical at all! Any one tried http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CYLINDER...a58991&vxp=mtr ? They have the washers on the bolts, just like MP bolts.
Last edited by tryingbe; 03-12-2016 at 10:11 AM.
so here's a question. Engines installed with new felpro's. Should I pull them? Can I go to studs without physically removing the head but only the bolts?
I would replace the studs one at a time and not pull the head.
Why would you think you need to pull them? If you do decide to pull them, the engine has to be cold. The bolts should be removed in opposite order. Question then is will the gasket stay sealed? If the engine has been run I think that's a gamble.
I came to the conclusion years ago that the torque to yield spec is generalized
quite by accident I discovered that the 1/4 turn is unnessasary - not to say that I don't still do it
but , a number of years ago I was removeing the head from "last years motor" when I discovered I'd only torqued the head bolts to 65 pounds and had forgotten the 1/4 turn afterwards
it's kinda obvious when you go to pull the bolts out as not much effort is required
it was a log motor , with a felpro printaseal head gasket and mopar 11 mm bolts
never leaked anywhere at the head - ran 10-12 pounds of boost for 6-8 months before the rod bearings went bad (again)
rod bearings were the reason for the tear down as they were 6 springs in a row when I used castrol
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
