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Thread: Torque Converter Advice

  1. #1
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    Torque Converter Advice

    OK - so I'm going to try to build my van up for SDAC and I'm definitely going to put in a fresh engine and trans in it (been wanting to do this for over a year, so this is the motivator I needed).

    I have a couple spare 413's here that I plan to rebuild and one of them is a 91 tbi lockup trans. I was thinking about combining the guts from a 90 turbo trans I have with the 91 tbi case to make a beefy 413 with lockup. Has anyone else done this? Any parts that I need to use out of the 91 tbi (besides the case...LOL) to make sure a lockup tc will fit/work?

    I've seen mention of the neon trans tc being a good fit for the van, but I haven't seen any specific manufacturers mentioned or any model years I would use to order the tc. Does anyone have any recommendations on a good tc for the van? I'm looking for something mild as good mpg and around town usage are my main goals, but it has to be able to stand up to about 250whp as that's what I think my build will probably make for power.

    Also, if lockup is going to be a pain, should I skip that and just go with the straight 90 turbo trans beefup and a non locking tc? If yes, same question - who makes a good non-lockup tc with something in the stall range of around 2800?

    Thanks!

    Jon

  2. #2
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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    413 with lockup. Has anyone else done this?
    I have this in my van. I have/use a turbo PT Cruser torque converter.
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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Will you be using a stock turbo?? If its stock, go with a factory type 2000+ DOHC cam Neon TC, its has a factory bearing installed and its low stall. The factory PT has a very tight stall too, so much soo you can't do a boost burnout with a stock GT. Otherwise Hugh's, Nan, Coan converters.

    To install is cake, you need a LU valve body, get one from a Neon, input shaft and drill a hole in the case for the connector. Mines on a toggle switch but you can turn it on in the factory computer if you want.
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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanmanČ View Post
    Will you be using a stock turbo?? If its stock, go with a factory type 2000+ DOHC cam Neon TC, its has a factory bearing installed and its low stall.
    They are getting extremely hard to find lately, mostly because no such Neon ever existed. There were no 2000+ DOHC 2.0 Neons. And 2001+ were 4-speeds.
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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanmanČ View Post
    Will you be using a stock turbo?? If its stock, go with a factory type 2000+ DOHC cam Neon TC, its has a factory bearing installed and its low stall. The factory PT has a very tight stall too, so much soo you can't do a boost burnout with a stock GT. Otherwise Hugh's, Nan, Coan converters.

    To install is cake, you need a LU valve body, get one from a Neon, input shaft and drill a hole in the case for the connector. Mines on a toggle switch but you can turn it on in the factory computer if you want.
    Yeah - stock garrett turbo with TU 3" swingvalve and downpipe.

    Why would I need a neon LU valve body and input shaft? Couldn't I use the parts from the 91 tbi a413 I've got?

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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyb View Post
    Yeah - stock garrett turbo with TU 3" swingvalve and downpipe.

    Why would I need a neon LU valve body and input shaft? Couldn't I use the parts from the 91 tbi a413 I've got?
    Is it LU? if so, just you can use the case and LU parts or just drill the hole, got a $5 drill bit, its even marked from the inside. Neon stuff is easier to find these days if you don't have the parts already.

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    They are getting extremely hard to find lately, mostly because no such Neon ever existed. There were no 2000+ DOHC 2.0 Neons. And 2001+ were 4-speeds.
    Doh, lol, sorry, 2000 and earlier. 4 speed one will work too, not sure if they have the bearing though.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    That's weird - I can see the reply that I made to Johnny in your reply to it Simon, but I don't see it in this thread anymore. Well, you captured it with your post so I guess I won't retype...LOL!

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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanmanČ View Post
    Is it LU?
    Yes the 91 tbi trans I have is LU. OK, so that sounds pretty straight forward, but I don't really know much about the neons/pt cruisers - what trans is it I'm looking for, is it the 41TE? Do I look for a stock converter or a high stall? I'm thinking a little higher stall might be ok if I have lockup to keep the rpm's in check for highway cruising, but ideally with my build and the usage the van will see, I think something around 2800 rpm would be good.

    Johnny - what rpm does that tc stall at in your van?

    EDIT: forgot to ask - what do I do for a flexplate? Will the one I have (or the one from the tbi motor) work with one of these tc's?

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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    I used the stock flex plate. Never raced it. I had a Hughes that stalled high and hated it.
    The van cruzes at 65 mph and about 2600-3000 rpm. The hughes was always on -off at that
    RPM. I have not wired in the lock up yet. I like this PT one for driving around.
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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyb View Post
    Yes the 91 tbi trans I have is LU. OK, so that sounds pretty straight forward, but I don't really know much about the neons/pt cruisers - what trans is it I'm looking for, is it the 41TE? Do I look for a stock converter or a high stall? I'm thinking a little higher stall might be ok if I have lockup to keep the rpm's in check for highway cruising, but ideally with my build and the usage the van will see, I think something around 2800 rpm would be good.

    Johnny - what rpm does that tc stall at in your van?

    EDIT: forgot to ask - what do I do for a flexplate? Will the one I have (or the one from the tbi motor) work with one of these tc's?
    For a stock turbo, you DO NOT want a higher stall, your MPG will drop like a rock. A Neon or PT cruiser stall around 2500 rpm, which is perfect for a stockish engine. The 41TE converter is the same dimensions as the 3 speed.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

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    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Jon, talk to Cliff. He had sourced a place for a LU converter that would stand 300hp build. I was going to go that route in my 5spd Spirit if I kept ruining clutches. Was just going to conv to auto but wanted lock up.
    They are more prone to fail, since that input shaft is tiny. So if you want to go big later on, you may need yo rethink things or build for your eventual now.
    Use those different transfer gears helps bring that highway rpm down.

    I'm still keeping the idea of a lockup auto as a possibility but wanted a bit more safety factor in the rated hp of the TC.
    Wayne H.

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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    I was just at Cliff's last night. I dropped off my two cores (90 turbo 413/91 tbi 413 with lockup) to have him make me a nice strong turbo a413 with lockup. He wasn't too happy with me though - I neglected to drain the fluid from them and when we were carrying them into his garage they puked dirty fluid all over his driveway and garage floor! Sorry again Cliff if you happen to read this!

    He thinks the hybrid will be plenty strong for what I'm looking to do, as I'm not looking to build the van into a race type of vehicle. I have several other vehicles that fit that bill! My main goals are better mpg and a little more get up and go for when I feel like having a little fun. So my plan is 3bar map, decent intercooler, +20's and a free flowing exhaust and that's about it. This van will have cast pistons and nothing really done to the top or bottom end, so I'm not planning on trying to make more than 225-250 whp.

    Cliff sent me a link to a place that does lockup converters to withstand up to 300 hp:http://shop.rezlo.com/index.php?main...products_id=29 (sounds like that may be the place he was thinking about for you).
    I was also going to call Pat's in Pennsylvania as I've heard that they can do heavy duty lockup tc, and maybe check out mrx motors (
    http://www.mrxmotors.com/index_files...uild_parts.htm - they have a note about doing a billet lockup tc), as well as IPT (http://www.importperformancetrans.co...-fwd-1792.html).

    Anyone have any feedback on the above companies?

    Thanks!

    Jon

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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Never heard of any of those companies, but whatever Cliff uses's should hold up.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    So if using the turbo PT locking converter, is that the only 4 speed trans part needed? So for the people that have done this, does it only work on cars with a SMEC and SBEC or does the logic module have the ability to control the locking converter as well?

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    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    I don't think the "normal" LM would do it, but Rob (aka Shelgame) might have a solution, he's working on a "super LM". I assume there are enough outputs to accommodate it.

    However, you can install a simple switch to do the same job, or, if you want it to be automatic, you could instal a pressure switch in the trans and an adjustable vacuum switch to serve the same function, albeit in a slightly less sophisticated way.

    Mike
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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 1986GLH View Post
    So if using the turbo PT locking converter, is that the only 4 speed trans part needed? So for the people that have done this, does it only work on cars with a SMEC and SBEC or does the logic module have the ability to control the locking converter as well?
    No other 4 speed parts fit.

    Not sure about the LM but the SMEC and SBEC you can or use a toggle switch, that way in the city, you can turn it off.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by zin View Post
    I don't think the "normal" LM would do it, but Rob (aka Shelgame) might have a solution, he's working on a "super LM". I assume there are enough outputs to accommodate it.

    However, you can install a simple switch to do the same job, or, if you want it to be automatic, you could instal a pressure switch in the trans and an adjustable vacuum switch to serve the same function, albeit in a slightly less sophisticated way.

    Mike
    Yeah I have been watching Rob's super LM thread and am hoping something comes out of that. I might PM him and ask him if he has any other ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanmanČ View Post
    No other 4 speed parts fit.

    Not sure about the LM but the SMEC and SBEC you can or use a toggle switch, that way in the city, you can turn it off.
    I might have to do the switch thing for now like you have for now Simon. Or maybe a pressure switch/vacuum switch like Mike said.=

  18. #18
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    If it's a code issue the super LM will be running the newer code, so if that's the issue this should solve the issue, if there aren't available outputs on a LM you're going to be going without computer control.

    Mike
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by zin View Post
    If it's a code issue the super LM will be running the newer code, so if that's the issue this should solve the issue, if there aren't available outputs on a LM you're going to be going without computer control.

    Mike
    Yeah good point. I guess we will see what Rob says. All else fails I guess I will have to swap my new yorker to SMEC. Was just hoping to avoid doing this again.

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    Re: Torque Converter Advice

    Just to be clear, you don't need/can't use any other 4 speed parts, but to make the lockup work in the 3 speed I believe you need more than just a locking torque converter and a switch (ecu controlled or manual). I believe you also need an input shaft and case from a 3 speed lockup transmission and maybe a few other parts as well.

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