5 speed stuck in gear. Hit starter, car moves forward or synchros grind.

[Ondonti]

a543, large spline. Shift cables disconnected. Not pushing clutch because the pressure plate is very strong.

Makes diagnosing ecu issues difficult because I can't hold the clutch in while starting (being nice to the thrust bearings). Wiggling the shifter last year wold result in either grinding sounds or complete moving forward. All in neutral. I had tried purposely holding it against other synchros and not much difference.

With the shifter and cables it was almost impossible to get into 1 and 3 position without pushing the clutch in (motor off) and with the cables removed I can't move them into 1st and 3rd pushing the transmission levers.

I can feel 5th gear and lockout but 2nd and 4th don't feel right (hand manipulating the trans levers).

I thought the transmission was functioning properly when I moved the car around a few times but the last time it was driven (2.5+ years ago) I missed a 3-4 shift. The car behaved the rest of that night and still make hard 3-4 shifts. I noticed this problem 1 year ago when trying to start up the car and have not had time until now. I had moved the car and started it (stole better condition cylinder heads and put junkers on) after it sat for 6 months. It sat for another year and then this problem was VERY obvious.

Trans has been difficult years before to get into 1st in a "lockout" type feeling (not grinding). It took some force sometimes and then it would just go right in.

[Reaper1]

Well, I responded to another thread you posted in, but this has some more detail.

I suspect that you may have a damaged pressure plate. On top of that, it sounds like possibly some shift fork pads are FUBAR or MIA. I'd pop the shift selector housing off at the very least and look around in there with a flashlight to see anything obvious.

[Ondonti]

Bad pressure plate is only a problem when you have it in gear and push the clutch in and the car wants to move forward (especially when you raise rpms at someplace like the drag strip). I have had that before.

The pressure plate is supposed to be clamped up because I am neutral no clutch starting to save the thrust bearings.

I thought about popping the shifter tower off but I don't know if anything will be visible. I have not removed one since 2002. I have 2 spare large splines, one has no 5th gear synchro function and one might have a bad 4th gear PP (only tested with a damaged pressure plate that dragged even when clutch pressed in). I don't really want to take any of them apart right now if I can avoid it. If I spend time on a transmission I might as well mess around with the AWD diff and that was not in my plans at the moment. Massive downtime would not make me happy cause this car has no go fast goodies on it to make it worth that effort.

Junkyards here are pretty weak and there are no prepulled stuff in the state according to car-part.com. I know where all the pull yards were in Utah and they had a great selection for me. I saw a bunch of 5 speed transmissions when I was on vacation there last fall and needed a radiator fan.
Taking google notes at work...
AAA Auto Wrecking (has u pull prices). Poor reviews
B&R Auto Wrecking (no info) In Graham.
Grand Forks Auto Wrecking (good reviews, not sure on picking) Puyallop.

http://www.dexknows.com/local/automo.../c-seattle-wa/

[Reaper1]

Well, since I don't have a mode of transport right now (wrecked the bike on Wednesday), I wish I could come over to help. If you are willing to transport me to/from my house I'd be more than happy to help you on Saturday during the day! Get with me and LMK. It's been a while since I've wrenched with a friend anyway. I think it would be fun!

[BadAssPerformance]

Some thoughts...

After sitting, lubrication is reduced from either gravity working or longer term, surface corrosion. My T2 Shadow feels very stiff to shift right now as well. I started the Shadow a cold winter day and completely in neutral it kinda pulled itself forward till I tapped the brakes... viscous shear of cold oil.

If yours is pulling itself forward gently like viscous shear or more violetly like it is in gear? The "synchro noise" is because it is almost partially in gear. Maybe you could try the shift cable alignment proceedure, where you take the pin out of the top of the shifter housing and flip it over and put it into the hole in the shift rail to lock it in neutral? see if it rolls forward an dback by puching the car... the when you try to start, if it still makes noise, tranny issues? If it still pulls forward, gunky oil?

[Ondonti]

Well, since I don't have a mode of transport right now (wrecked the bike on Wednesday), I wish I could come over to help. If you are willing to transport me to/from my house I'd be more than happy to help you on Saturday during the day! Get with me and LMK. It's been a while since I've wrenched with a friend anyway. I think it would be fun!

I can probably do that. My wife is going to a super baby stuff garage sale Sat morning and I am not working. Drive safer! My state has killed both your rides.

Some thoughts...

After sitting, lubrication is reduced from either gravity working or longer term, surface corrosion. My T2 Shadow feels very stiff to shift right now as well. I started the Shadow a cold winter day and completely in neutral it kinda pulled itself forward till I tapped the brakes... viscous shear of cold oil.

If yours is pulling itself forward gently like viscous shear or more violetly like it is in gear? The "synchro noise" is because it is almost partially in gear. Maybe you could try the shift cable alignment proceedure, where you take the pin out of the top of the shifter housing and flip it over and put it into the hole in the shift rail to lock it in neutral? see if it rolls forward an dback by puching the car... the when you try to start, if it still makes noise, tranny issues? If it still pulls forward, gunky oil?

The corrosion word makes a little sense to me. The car suffered a lot of external corrosion from the damp and sitting. I pulled the car cover off because that seemed to be tenting in the moisture and causing stuff to grow even on metal parts. It seems very strange that the trans goes from being a bit clunky when at a stop trying to get into 1st to this extremely odd behavior.

The car pulls forward gently but I am afraid to hold the brakes because that syncho sound really makes me want to stop turning the motor over because I feel I am messing up good parts. I was unable today to get the grinding sound from synchros. Purely moving forward. I am on slanted gravel in a carport so I would probably have to tow the car out to try pushing.

I think what I mean about fixing trans issues is that I don't want to open up multiple transmissions right now to fix one. That brass pads thread is quite dead right now. Are there any left out there? I was too busy at the time to get involved with purchases of parts I could not use for a year or so. I liked what I saw from people running the extra pad. Finally finished my course work for my degree and things I have been putting off have gotten worse. I found my boost sensor for my zeitronix seems to be dead and my multimeters are dead :P

[Reaper1]

I can probably do that. My wife is going to a super baby stuff garage sale Sat morning and I am not working.

Cool! Let me know when and I'll be ready!

Drive safer! My state has killed both your rides.

LOL. *I* killed both my rides! One was just simply just having fun and finally pushing a failing part over the edge (the Z). The other was a mistake that probably could have been avoided, but really was an eventuality. There is a saying motorcyclists have: "There are only 2 kinds of motorcyclists, those that have gone down, and those that will eventually go down". It was unfortunately my time. I'm simply happy it wasn't any worse, and even happier to even be able to type this post!

Anyway. Yeah, get with me if you're up for it and we'll try to fix this thing! Let me know if you need me to bring any tools. I've got drifts and such that might be needed if we dive into the tranny. Oh! I also have my 1990 FSM! If you want, I can also bring my DVM to do some electrical troubleshooting, too. It's up to you!

[Ondonti]

Thanks Chris! I would have not pulled the transmission apart if you were not there.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
Here is the reason why we took things apart to inspect. Car moves forward in neutral and on jackstands the tires turn about the speed of 1st gear when using the starter to turn the engine over. I got a spare transmission (small spline 3.50) that is currently unusable out of the shed and when we took the shifter top off, the stop rings for 1-2 have plenty of endplay and things like winged struts seem to move around like they should. On this broken large spline transmission the stop rings have no end play and when you engage a gear, the winged struts are pinned against the opposite stop ring and will not move end to end.

Stack of gears seems to have a problem once we removed everything. Car has been sitting for 2.5 years with this goop from a walking pinion sleeve everywhere. That could be the F.O.D. issue gumming things up.



Stop rings have no endplay, things seem pushed together. Winged struts have absolutely zero endplay no matter which gear you engage and always presses up against the stop ring in both gears.

[BadAssPerformance]

Good investigation and nice teamwork! Could be aluminum debris jacking things up. If that's the case, press the gears off the shaft, cleaning everything and re-installing might work.

How did the bearing look? If OK, could press back on and TIG into place.

[Ondonti]

Bearings all look good. At least aluminum is soft. I am not sure on an affordable tool for pressing off the large bearing or what other things need to press off. Cheated for everything up to this point. I am not particularly excited by a 500 dollar clamshell setup that might not even have the sizes I need or the Harbor Freight style puller that might not work.

[135sohc]

http://www.harborfreight.com/bearing...set-93980.html

I dont have that exact set but something similar from a local junk tool store. Grind out the center of the larger clamshell grabber and it will work. Get a set of lock ring pliers http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1..._tnt=39869:4:0

They have a larger flat tip to grab the inside of the rings and not slip/damage everything.

[Ondonti]

http://www.harborfreight.com/bearing...set-93980.html

I dont have that exact set but something similar from a local junk tool store. Grind out the center of the larger clamshell grabber and it will work. Get a set of lock ring pliers http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1..._tnt=39869:4:0

They have a larger flat tip to grab the inside of the rings and not slip/damage everything.

I saw that tool and was thinking that it needed modification to work properly. Not sure about reviews claiming the threads all strip out with finger pressure :P I was also not sure if its diameter is big enough for the larger gears etc.
I think I have already made some of those lock rings unhappy using flatheads and snap ring pliars. I don't understand some of the choices on where to design a lockring vs snapring into a product.

[BadAssPerformance]

I use a press and some fixtures I made for the gear swaps, but that puller looks familiar...

[135sohc]

I saw that tool and was thinking that it needed modification to work properly. Not sure about reviews claiming the threads all strip out with finger pressure :P I was also not sure if its diameter is big enough for the larger gears etc.
I think I have already made some of those lock rings unhappy using flatheads and snap ring pliars. I don't understand some of the choices on where to design a lockring vs snapring into a product.

Locking rings have a smaller outside footprint for a given size vs a regular snap ring with the protruding ears.

[Reaper1]

No problem, Brent! Now we have to figure out how to get it at least working right, then back together.

Being positive again (uh oh), I think we can do it! I think it will really depend on what is jacked up in the 1-2 gear stack.

JT, the bearings actually looked pretty good, but his oil slinger is MIA. I know you are familiar with that issue. I'm fairly certain that slinger is pretty important to the oiling of the intermediate shaft. Am I correct? If so, to replace that slinger I know the pinion bearing has to come out, but on the 3-plane transmissions, does pulling that bearing destroy it like on the earlier 4-plane transmissions?

Also, how thick is the case where that pinion bearing race is eating? His has a really good amount of material gone and neither of us know how much is there. I'm also not sure of how much load that flat space takes. I know on the bellhousing side it is braced radially, but both Brent and I are thinking that has to do with distributing the load that the pinion bearing is placing on the case.

[BadAssPerformance]

Good luck finding a new oil slinger with those being NLA. I ran my last trans for a while without one and it seemed to not cause issue, but not too many miles on it at that point. If you use the proper Miller tool to pull the bearing you can re-use it... I havn't personally done this yet cuz i just picked up the tool to do it. Casting is not too thick there, but as long as its not cut through it should be OK.

[Ondonti]

I thought it would be easier to repair the case (though maybe not needed) by welding a plate on the outside as long as it does not contact the clutch plate.
-------------------------------

Anyways, I bought 3 pullers, and ended up choosing this one simply because the spreader bar is wider.
http://www.harborfreight.com/14-piec...set-30305.html
It doesn't actually fit as well over this large bearing because the clamp is thicker but I decided it had the most versatility.
-----------

Got things off, Winged struts in 3-4 were chock full of aluminum paste. Probably same on 1-2. I don't know if some of the springs for the winged struts were popped out already when I pulled things loose.

Verdict=======

1st and 2nd gear: Inner cone, Middle cone, stop ring. All corroded and stuck together. So the Middle Cone holds on the gear and then the Inner cone holds onto the shaft and the gears are locked together. This seemed to prevent the proper function of the Synchro assembly etc.

Thinking I will just Scotchbright away the corrosion and go with it. Not sure if that would remove too much material for proper function. This has probably been going on for awhile. I don't know what the grinding sounds that the transmission was making (like synchros lightly grinding) but there was no slack between the 1-2 assembly so I don't know if the Synchro assembly was fully disengaging from either gear.

I do not have a puller for the pinion bearing and I am even considering putting back in the partially broken shift fork pad for the time being.
Let this be a "runner" transmission and start building another.

[Reaper1]

Did the 1st and 2nd gears spin on the shaft with no issues once you got the synchro assembly off? I'm just curious if maybe something might have happened to the parts that hold the gears in place on the shaft?

[Ondonti]

As I said, Middle cone has 4 wings that seat into the gear which means they turn together. Inner cone is splined to the shaft. That cone was corroded to the Middle cone. Therefore both gears were locked up on the shaft. The stop rings were also corroded, that is why there was no endplay on anything in the 1-2 and why the winged struts seemed stuck.

[Reaper1]

Ah..ok. Now I got it!