Basic V-6 Tech Specs, etc.

[zin]

Well, always one to be contrarian, and provide myself a challenge, I'm thinking about a V-6 Shadow build, assuming I can find one and at a decent price...

Seems there is less love for these cars and so I wouldn't feel too bad if I got a bit more radical than what I'd feel comfortable doing with any of the more rare cars I've got.

So, I'm looking for strengths/weaknesses of the various flavors of V-6 that could be made to fit, not just the stock 3.0... After all, a "good big one" is always better than a "good little one"!

I don't think I could stand to not be turbo'd so that's a factor too.

I expect custom pistons, but what about rods/crank and the block? Do we have a good idea what the stock parts can deal with or am I just going to have to blow stuff up?

Thanks in advance for any and all help/pointers!

Mike

[MC#4]

Don't bother with all the nitty-gritty details! V6 is where it's at, just dive in head first and join the dark side of TM! LoL

I'm typing on an iPod or I'd get into more detail, but If you Check out a few build threads in the 3.0 section you will find some great info.

[zin]

That's a great idea! (should have thought of that).

I'd appreciate the other tips, etc as a short cut to addressing the weak links. Ultimately I was inspired to do a AWD V-6 Shadow by reviewing this thread: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...D-Dodge-Shadow

Just seems like it's more doable and not going to require me to cut up a GLH, GLHS, Spirit R/T or 86 Aries turbo wagon... I do like the rare and obscure cars... but I don't want to cut any of them up to fit the AWD stuff, plus, the AWD Vans were V-6 to start with, so many of the issues other than body modifications go away...

Mike

[Reaper1]

The 3.0 has proven that stock internals can withstand 500+whp with a good tune.

Vigo likes all flavors of the V6's. The only drawback to the 3.3/3.8 is that you have to find a manual transmission from a 2.7 car if you want stick, plus there's even less support for those. Not saying they can't make power (that's been proven untrue a long time ago)...just that it'll be a little more in the "dark" so-to-speak. I know there's been at least 1 3.3 boosted...I don't know of any 3.8's.

Oh, and it's basically unknown whether you can adapt the AWD system to the manual tranny of the 2.7. So, if AWD is the way you want to go, the 3.0 is a better bet right out of the box.

[MC#4]

Ok got to a pc so I'll throw my very humble opinion out with some info I'm snagged from the forums over the past 2 years.

3.0 is definately the popular choice if you go V6, although there are a few 3.5 builds going on right now which could end up yielding big power. I'm not gonna pretend to know much about the 3.5 swap so I'll stick to the 3.0 stuff. The DOHC 3.0 in the stealths/3000gt's has potential for MASSIVE power (TT's have made well over 1000whp in the 3S world) I've seen one swapped into a neon and one in a shadow but it is not a popular swap. SOHC 3.0's used in the chrysler cars have alot of potential if you take the time to piece it all together and drop some cash/time on custom parts. You can't buy much of anything high performace off the shelf for a SOHC. Everything is made to order and generally costs a bit more because of that.

Trails have been blazed long ago if you decide to use the good 'ol SOHC 3.0 found in the chrysler cars. All the important stuff has been documented and there are several knowledgable members on here who know everything you could ever want to know about them. Forged pistons have been made, Forged cranks can be sourced if you get REALLY crazy, Cams can be reground and new billet cams can be had, Turbo manifolds are available, Head porting has been done with success, engine management is tricky but very doable with a stand alone like megasquirt or AEM EMS. I think alot of people are scared to jump ship from 4 bangers to try and modify the 3.0 for big power since its so seldom done, but I see BIG potential with the right combination of parts and good old perserverance.

[shayne]

rule of thumb i kept seeing is stock cast crank up until ~550 whp with failures around 600 depending on tune. i kept reading ~600-700whp on stock forged rods. cast pistons? dont know, but i chose to go forged. head porting can reach 200cfm intake with work compared to ?180-190cfm from a 2.2-2.5l head plus you got 2 more cylinders extra. motors are really undercammed and respond well to a cam change. closed combustion chamber for good detonation resistance. at least a minimum of a two bolt per main bedplate, waaay better than the mains on a 2.2-2.5. very thick cylinder walls, i had mine checked at work before machining and it speced out to .260-.310 thick, lots better than nearly all 4 cylinders from chrysler. torquey as can be. what's to not like?

[Vigo]

Shayne is quickly becoming a top 3.0 expert, he's one to watch!

Also, i think the intake on the 12v 3.0 head has been ported to flow closer to 250cfm than 200.. It starts fairly close to 200!

I think if you want to do AWD, you have to be planning turbo anyway since there's no point to AWD at n/a v6 power levels unless you go REALLY crazy. If you can stand to run an auto, turning a factory 3.0/4spd Shadow into an AWD will be the simplest build (and you might as well keep SOMETHING simple because you're already talking AWD swap and custom turbo setup!). The only big downside there is that we dont have a way to modify the way the transmission shifts other than converting it to autostick. Shelgame has expressed ambitions in that direction but until enough people get on the 604 bandwagon i doubt it will become a priority. The plus side is that if you ask people who have looked at the insides of both the 604 and the old 3spd, people will tell you that the 604 appears be as strong if not stronger right out of the box as far as hard parts. Its main failing as far as hard parts is it CANNOT take turbo torque in 4th gear, its simply too small of a clutch pack to hold full power from a boosted motor. Doesnt really matter because you can gear a 604 to go 150 in 3rd and make all the power to do it with a turbo 3.0. There are people who have had 604s built up and put a good amount of torque through them, so it's not like it's a completely unproven thing. I think a 600hp neon ran a 604 for a while with completely stock internals but aftermarket shift controls. SebringLX here has/had a turbo 2.4 sebring with built internals and stock controls. PT GTs had them from the factory and some of them are making a lot of power.

So that'd be my vote. 3.0/auto/AWD shadow. But, if you want 3.0/5spd/awd, it can and has been done.

It's a personal ambition of mine to make some power on a 3.8 car (i just put one together and have a thread for it in the project log section) but as of right now, there's extremely thin/poor documentation on doing it, and unless you just want to make your job more complicated i dont think the 3.3/3.8 family is worth an engine swap over a factory 3.0 shadow which comes with an extremely strong, proven motor.

[bakes]

I still want to do the 3.5l turbo motor with 3.2l front cover and 2.7l stick and put it in a T&C wagon

[shayne]

not an expert at all, just good at reading and regurgitating facts and numbers ive read before, and following good advice after careful thought.

my thought was this, it takes major work to make a 4cyl mopar to touch 600-700 whp with very much of it experimental and close kept secrets from those in the know, the nice part about the mitsu v6 is the road is already paved for you you just chose your path, lots of guys pumping out big power with various examples of dohc and sohc 24valves, with fewer but several strong examples of 12 valves built up, i feel the power potential is much greater with these motors. the next go around with my motor i will be springing for the forged crank and h-beam rods, rework the heads more, more cam, and more boost and a stand-alone ems. 30-40psi in a 2.2l/2.5l would be really quick but in a nice smooth running 3l v6 it would try to rip your face off.
awd would be nice but based on the advice of a family friend who is a long time dealer mechanic at langley chrysler, i think the viscous coupling in the factory awd setup would prove to be an expensive weak link. he extolled the virtues of seeing many examples of town and country's, pacifica's and a couple other similar chrysler awd's and the weak link in a stock system seems to be the v.c., kind of worrisome considering they arent going to be getting any easier or cheaper to buy, unless an aftermarket supplier steps in to make them for the long term, not likely considering getrag's reputation for hard to find drivetrain parts.

[turbovanman²]

Shayne don't know squat until he drives his car, right now, its a yard queen, hehe!

Shaynes Custom plenum or spacers, internal plenum porting, forged pistons, good assembly, arp fasteners, my cams, Shaynes headers, decent turbo, bigger injectors, maybe head porting, Shelgame modifed computer, piggy back on the stocker or MS, tune, decent clutch, LSD, poly everything, decent tires, go have fun.

[Vigo]

just good at reading and ... following good advice after careful thought.

That's pretty much all you need!

One of my favorite sayings goes: "If you can do a half---- job of anything, you're a one-eyed man in a kingdom of the blind". I think you're doing a lot better than half----!

[Reaper1]

not an expert at all, just good at reading and regurgitating facts and numbers ive read before, and following good advice after careful thought.

my thought was this, it takes major work to make a 4cyl mopar to touch 600-700 whp with very much of it experimental and close kept secrets from those in the know, the nice part about the mitsu v6 is the road is already paved for you you just chose your path, lots of guys pumping out big power with various examples of dohc and sohc 24valves, with fewer but several strong examples of 12 valves built up, i feel the power potential is much greater with these motors. the next go around with my motor i will be springing for the forged crank and h-beam rods, rework the heads more, more cam, and more boost and a stand-alone ems. 30-40psi in a 2.2l/2.5l would be really quick but in a nice smooth running 3l v6 it would try to rip your face off.
awd would be nice but based on the advice of a family friend who is a long time dealer mechanic at langley chrysler, i think the viscous coupling in the factory awd setup would prove to be an expensive weak link. he extolled the virtues of seeing many examples of town and country's, pacifica's and a couple other similar chrysler awd's and the weak link in a stock system seems to be the v.c., kind of worrisome considering they arent going to be getting any easier or cheaper to buy, unless an aftermarket supplier steps in to make them for the long term, not likely considering getrag's reputation for hard to find drivetrain parts.

There are several offroad shops that specialize in rebuilding and modifying VC's. I feel positive that something could be done with the one in our system.

[Irocelectric93]

The intake on my heads from Ed was over 200 for sure. I have a graph somewhere. Ed could probably say what his stage 2 heads do for the most part but it's not super far off from brents heads without valves and such. I think Kreel probably has the best 12v heads i've seen but i don't remember what his flow numbers were.

[c2xejk]

Here is a chart from my port work that I posted in a different thread.



Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com

[zin]

Thanks for the charts and the links!

So the V-6s aren't really Chrysler designs, but rather Mitsu? Not that this is a problem of any kind, rather curious as to other options for heads, etc...

Are all the V-6s "related"? As in the 3.3 and 3.8 just being bigger versions of the 3.0? In another arena I plan on building a big bore, short stroke 60* GM V-6 using a 3.4 block and 2.8 crank, and am curious if something like this would be an option on this side of things as well.

Thanks again for the info guys!

Mike

[MC#4]

Thanks for the charts and the links!

So the V-6s aren't really Chrysler designs, but rather Mitsu? Not that this is a problem of any kind, rather curious as to other options for heads, etc...

Are all the V-6s "related"? As in the 3.3 and 3.8 just being bigger versions of the 3.0? In another arena I plan on building a big bore, short stroke 60* GM V-6 using a 3.4 block and 2.8 crank, and am curious if something like this would be an option on this side of things as well.

Thanks again for the info guys!

Mike

I don't know the exact origins but yeah the 3.0 is considered a Mitsu engine. I think chrysler just took the Mitsu version and changed a few things around to fit its own apps.

Not aware of any other heads that will actually work. Oversized valves and port work on stock heads has been done though

Afaik the 3.3/3.8 are similar to each other but share nothing with the 3.0

I believe Ray Pampena has a stroker kit out for the TT 3.0 but I know its big money and I don't know if its applicable to a SOHC but it would be something to check out if money isn't an issue.

[c2xejk]

True, but the Mitsu 3.5L (aka 6g74) and Mitsu 3.8L (aka 6g75) do share some with the 3L (aka 6g72)

[zin]

Ah, I figured there had to be some engines of different displacement with come commonality between them...

I don't think I'll worry about stroking it, more likely to de-stroke it, depending on the L/R ratios, etc.

But for now, I think I'll do best to simply work with what "ain't broke", before I have to fix it!

Now to find that insanely cheap, cherry of a Shadow!

Mike

[MC#4]

Ah, I figured there had to be some engines of different displacement with come commonality between them...

I don't think I'll worry about stroking it, more likely to de-stroke it, depending on the L/R ratios, etc.

But for now, I think I'll do best to simply work with what "ain't broke", before I have to fix it!

Now to find that insanely cheap, cherry of a Shadow!

Mike

I'm not sure how set you are on a shadow but remember the 3.0 came in an absurd number of vehicles. There are a lot of REALLY nice 4-door 3.0 cars that can easily be swapped to a 5-speed. There are a few nice ones around my area for ~$1000 running/driving/inspected.

[shayne]

do a turbo 3l caravan and make simon jealous of the power band