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Thread: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

  1. #461
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    We gonna find out soon, only owe $400 on the trans now. Couple more side jobs and I'll be putting this thing together
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    According to DDG the car went 12.6@111mph.

    Gary's car is listed at 12.6@110, so they had to have been making similar power. I do know Gary went through an extreme weight loss program on his car...to the point of cutting off extra bolt lengths, etc., so beyond having the stereo in the car (the rear seat was removed for the amps, etc.) the 2 cars were probably VERY evenly matched. Gary's car used a stock driveline with a custom cal and basic supporting mods. The stock Garret turbo on a TII car is good for maybe just around 300chp totally maxed out.

    In order for that car to have 400chp it would have to weigh around 4000#'s to pull off 111mph. My Shelby Z was 3115 with me in it. I know Rick was about 200-225#'s probably (shorter than me IIRC, but built like a brick sh*thouse! LOL) and I was around 165# at the time, so that puts the car itself at 2950#. With a large competition stereo like what was in the car with all the added sound deadening and such, you could EASILY add 200#. Take the rear seat out because it isn't in the car...I forget how much it weighs (I'll try to remember to weigh mine this weekend), but let's just guess about 50#. It has racing seats in it that are very light. I want to say the stock non-power seats (this car was a base ES, so basically almost no power anything) are around 30# and the racing seats that replaced them are are around 15# with the covers and hardware, so take 30#'s off the car. But, you gotta add the roll bar, so that is what...another 100#'s (figuring the harnesses, too). Where's that put us: 3170#'s with a 200# driver. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess the car never weighed more than 3400#'s when it was racing. I know that's a HUGE guess, but I think it's actually a bit conservative and the car was probably lighter. OH!! I forgot about the wheels. I honestly don't remember what wheels he said he ran when he raced it. I know the 5-spoke ones most people remember on the car were 17x7 and not really all that light, so let's just call it a wash there.

    So that puts the car right around the 300whp ~350chp range. Seems about right. Remember that it's claimed that the nitrous was set up for 175hp, not 200. If we say that the engine was making around 200chp off the spray, then I can totally see it making the right amount of power on the spray to get that time. Considering the cam, aftermarket engine management (a BIGGIE), headers...eh...it might have been able to do that. Knowing that a nitrous "shot" isn't usually 100% efficient, we can take a stab and say that the 175 acted more like a 150....there's the solution!

    So unless the car was extremely heavy when it raced (possible) it most likely was making about 320-350chp, NOT 400.

  3. #463
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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    According to DDG the car went 12.6@111mph.

    Gary's car is listed at 12.6@110, so they had to have been making similar power. I do know Gary went through an extreme weight loss program on his car...to the point of cutting off extra bolt lengths, etc., so beyond having the stereo in the car (the rear seat was removed for the amps, etc.) the 2 cars were probably VERY evenly matched. Gary's car used a stock driveline with a custom cal and basic supporting mods. The stock Garret turbo on a TII car is good for maybe just around 300chp totally maxed out.

    In order for that car to have 400chp it would have to weigh around 4000#'s to pull off 111mph. My Shelby Z was 3115 with me in it. I know Rick was about 200-225#'s probably (shorter than me IIRC, but built like a brick sh*thouse! LOL) and I was around 165# at the time, so that puts the car itself at 2950#. With a large competition stereo like what was in the car with all the added sound deadening and such, you could EASILY add 200#. Take the rear seat out because it isn't in the car...I forget how much it weighs (I'll try to remember to weigh mine this weekend), but let's just guess about 50#. It has racing seats in it that are very light. I want to say the stock non-power seats (this car was a base ES, so basically almost no power anything) are around 30# and the racing seats that replaced them are are around 15# with the covers and hardware, so take 30#'s off the car. But, you gotta add the roll bar, so that is what...another 100#'s (figuring the harnesses, too). Where's that put us: 3170#'s with a 200# driver. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess the car never weighed more than 3400#'s when it was racing. I know that's a HUGE guess, but I think it's actually a bit conservative and the car was probably lighter. OH!! I forgot about the wheels. I honestly don't remember what wheels he said he ran when he raced it. I know the 5-spoke ones most people remember on the car were 17x7 and not really all that light, so let's just call it a wash there.

    So that puts the car right around the 300whp ~350chp range. Seems about right. Remember that it's claimed that the nitrous was set up for 175hp, not 200. If we say that the engine was making around 200chp off the spray, then I can totally see it making the right amount of power on the spray to get that time. Considering the cam, aftermarket engine management (a BIGGIE), headers...eh...it might have been able to do that. Knowing that a nitrous "shot" isn't usually 100% efficient, we can take a stab and say that the 175 acted more like a 150....there's the solution!

    So unless the car was extremely heavy when it raced (possible) it most likely was making about 320-350chp, NOT 400.
    Convert that to WHP and thats basically what I claimed the max power could be with the parts that he probably had installed. Really depends on the weight. IMO this means the car weighed less when racing and doesn't lead me to believe it made more power. Its just not reasonable. With that camshaft though the power output could be well beyond the 150ish that most people dyno with full boltons. I would actually really like to see what a nasty cam + good tune would do on the dyno for an otherwise bolton 3.0. Sometimes you can do a lot with a camshaft without porting heads etc. You would at least find a choke point more clearly (beyond the cams). We really don't know if it would make 160, 170, 180, 190, or 200whp. Hope I get around to this later this year if its not already done. Mine will be a little off due to some hard part changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    It would have to have some nasty cams and good tuning to hit 250hp n/a with barely touched heads and intake, unless it was wearing different parts at that time.

    As for what an engine is 'capable of inhaling', if you're pressurizing the charge then the limit is not the engine's natural VE, it becomes something else. On a turbo engine it would be heat gain or how resistant the compressor is to surging (i.e. turbo might surge and a screw blower might not under the same conditions). With nitrous you have super cold temps and aint nothing being forced backwards through that nozzle. I guess at some point traveling back up the intake to the throttle plate becomes a path of less resistance than actually going into the cylinder. Which begs the question if check valves a la 2-stroke reed valves in the runner would raise your nitrous power abilities. Analogizing further with a boosted setup, if your exhaust stream is backing up so much that you are losing all your gains to poor exhaust valve sealing and exhaust stroke pumping losses, that could be one other limit for nitrous.

    I wonder now if you put a 'streamer' of thread hanging in your intake pipe and could video it, if you would be able to see intake flow slowing down or reversing direction as you increased your nitrous jet size.
    Very well built with race gas required shortblock of SUNMIND on the 3/S forums only made 220whp on his 12 valve. Funny thats near what some of the most modified DOHC guys make too. That was with a cam that falls off before 7000 rpms, basically RPW stage 2 or similar size to Loziers cam. Sunminds car really does have the mods he claims, basically all the modifications that Loziers car claimed plus Pauter rods and custom forged high dome pistons. I don't think HP gains from compression are valid for guessing Nitrous gains, just the ones having to do with flow.

    Try reading up on the subject but you just don't find motors doubling their HP, and on a stockish camshaft you probably can't even get the 75% gain that some people can make. Doesn't matter what HP your motor can stand up to, its about what it can ingest.

    Since the reed valves don't exist I will still not worry about that concept. I read an article where they maxed out a junkyard SBC 350 by first fitting it with a decent nitrous specific camshaft, good single plane intake (and probably some good headers). Made 320chp. 200 shot made near 500. They tried a 400 shot and it backfired. The found out that the motor could only ingest 250hp of nitrous (of course those numbers are different between manufacturer rating systems). Anything beyond that and they could see fuel vapor misting over the carburetor (no air cleaner) along with zero reliable power gains. Pushing the limit did lead to ringlands breaking each time. The most power they made was 572chp but it was basically fatal due to the "misting" mentioned above. IMO fuel delivery will get totally messed up and you would be relying 100% on the nitrous fueling for fuel when you max out your spray levels. I will also repeat that this is probably what happened to Loziers motor. Ran too much spray at too low of an RPM so the motor just couldn't take it and it backed up into the plenum and redistributed randomly.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  4. #464
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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    I havent done any research but it sounds like i got most of the way there by thinking about it for 5 minutes anyway and basically described the same sort of visual symptom they actually found. I am guessing the point where you get 'nitrous reversion' depends heavily on how and where nitrous exits the nozzles. I would guess that direct port allows you to use more than a carb plate or single fogger somewhere before the plenum.

    I did a search to look at some direct port nitrous nozzles and basically the first thread i read was a 1.8L integra with vtec conversion making 350whp spraying 165, which is almost double.

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    I havent done any research but it sounds like i got most of the way there by thinking about it for 5 minutes anyway and basically described the same sort of visual symptom they actually found. I am guessing the point where you get 'nitrous reversion' depends heavily on how and where nitrous exits the nozzles. I would guess that direct port allows you to use more than a carb plate or single fogger somewhere before the plenum.

    I did a search to look at some direct port nitrous nozzles and basically the first thread i read was a 1.8L integra with vtec conversion making 350whp spraying 165, which is almost double.
    Well I don't really think thats double because a 1.8 could make well over 200whp on its own.

    I also don't think most setups agree with direct port since the v8 boys usually run multiple stages and running 16 or 24 sets of jets would get insane....They seem to prefer plates. Obviously cheaper. I don't know anything about how accurate progressive systems are at keeping fuel and nitrous balanced from onset to full on. That all sounds scary. I do know that huge shots use a huge amount of nitrous and thats gonna be fun to keep up with. How much does that stuff cost per pound? Probably easier to get a refill on the East coast.

    Full 150-200 shot sounds scary holding the brakes on the line with the a604. How can these programmers launch? I've read of Outlaw RWD guys 1st kitting off the line then 2nd stage coming in ~0.5 seconds after the hit. Wonder how many internal bracing upgrades the a604 really needs to help stand up to brake torquing.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  6. #466
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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    There's also different nozzles with different spray patterns available to optimize how the spray enters the runner. You can pretty effectively aim for the port entrance with some good positioning and the right nozzle choice. I bet that can make a difference, too. Damn it! Now I wanna toy with it just to see what happens! Lol

    Brent, just as you said, there's timer boxes, rpm trigger boxes, simple push button (F&F style )...maybe even more. Progressive shots work just like fuel injection. The important thing is to have a very strong fuel system that can keep up with the rapid fluctuations in pressure and volume demand.

    I think the 604 will do just as well as any other automatic that you are stalling against the converter. Get a HUGE cooler and a BUILT converter. I seriously don't buy some of these places telling us they can't do whatever when they built full custom CNC units for diesel guys all day. So yes, that will be expensive, but merely for reliability sake. If you don't care, then just do the regular crap and rebuild it once a season.

    If you are talking about a transbrake...I don't think it works well in this tranny, but I could be wrong.

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    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Also, you aren't spraying while staging, only after launch.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    I looking a trying to get TCS build me a mulit disc TC
    http://www.tcsproducts.com/products/...ce-converters/

    - - - Updated - - -

    This is where Simon and i get custom TC built

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Good luck. Honestly I think most places just don't want to do it. So if you find a shop that's willing to actually build something, not just piece it together, then I bet you have good success.

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Quote Originally Posted by bakes View Post
    I looking a trying to get TCS build me a mulit disc TC
    http://www.tcsproducts.com/products/...ce-converters/

    - - - Updated - - -

    This is where Simon and i get custom TC built
    Well, pretty much all but 1 or 2 years of the 604 can use the 413 lockup converter (all of them can use it as long as you swap in proper spline input shaft) so if you get one built it will work on the 604 as well.

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Well, pretty much all but 1 or 2 years of the 604 can use the 413 lockup converter (all of them can use it as long as you swap in proper spline input shaft) so if you get one built it will work on the 604 as well.
    What year and what is the difference in the input shaft?
    When I think of spraying aggressively I still think of hitting it on the converter on the last yellow. Not sure if anyone does that FWD style.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    It was in the very beginning. 89-? Definitely only the first 2 or 3 years of production. Input shafts are swappable.

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    It was in the very beginning. 89-? Definitely only the first 2 or 3 years of production. Input shafts are swappable.
    Is it smaller or larger? Wonder why in the world they would be different, especially why smaller.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  14. #474
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    They were larger initially. I guess they figured out that was pointless and consolidated to save parts on converters. 604s used 2 converter sizes, the smaller of which is identical to the 3spd lockup converter, so im sure they saved some money on that.

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    They were larger initially. I guess they figured out that was pointless and consolidated to save parts on converters. 604s used 2 converter sizes, the smaller of which is identical to the 3spd lockup converter, so im sure they saved some money on that.
    So can we call that early input shaft an upgrade?

    Looking at that converter order sheet, I don't know that I could fill out much for a project that is not completed. Bolt together converter sounds cool. Swap out stators
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Not really sure. The spline that the 604 and lockup 413s share is a 22-spline input shaft. The other 604 input shaft is a 24-spline. I don't know exact measurements but I feel like I remembered the older one being slightly larger. It looks like you can order one for $30 off the internet.

    https://www.wittrans.com/dx/cgi-bin/...OPTION=OPTIONS

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Got the engine pulled back out of the '86 and sitting in the shop to get ready to install. Gotta remove the flywheel and clutch and try and clean it up a bit. Probably put a new rear main seal in while I'm at it, put the auto flexplate on, swap my stock white low-impedance injectors in.

    What's a good way to clean up and polish the plenum and throttle body?
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    If those haven't gotten too pitted you might be able to go get some polishing stuff from "Horrible Freight" and with a drill you could make that thing a mirror again!

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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Neither engine has any real pitting. I just want to clean up this stock engine for now to make it look decent. When I build the nitrous engine I'll have things powdercoated or hydrodipped.
    Rob M.
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    Re: Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

    Then yeah, a drill, polish, and elbow grease and you can do your hair in them!

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