Project LookOwt: Saving a piece of 3.0 history

[Force Fed Mopar]

Borrowed the wife's Note and took a few better pics of it as it sits currently.

[Ondonti]

Those runners do not look like the "extrude honed" pieces I read about eons ago. Looks like the in and out was roughed up to look ported.

[Force Fed Mopar]

That's what I think too. Except just the out, the inlet from the plenum looks stock to me.

I have a feeling Rick was getting ripped off pretty bad by whatever shop (or shops) were doing the work. I've seen it happen to a friend twice here locally, stupid amounts of money spent with large shops that supposedly knew what they were doing, with no good results afterwards.

I'd almost bet this car ran it's best with just cams, exhaust and the nitrous system. I think once he had people start going into the engine and selling him extras, he started having problems getting it right, which eventually led to him selling it.

[Force Fed Mopar]

BTW if anyone is interested in the Nitrous Mastermind controller, I'm thinking of selling it and going with a newer controller that doesn't require an ignition box to work. Not completely decided yet, may wire it all back up for a while just for nostalgic reasons. It's still set at whatever he ran it at, and I think I've figured out the wiring.

[Reaper1]

I think the same...that he was getting hosed. Which absolutely sucks.

The Mastermind is one of the only controllers that didn't use a timer, so you could keep the system activated basically until the bottle ran out or the engine blew. Of course that's why most of them do have timers, but I don't like being limited.

[Force Fed Mopar]

The more I look at some of these parts, the less I think was done to this car. Things I think are right:

The cams are real, I measured the lift and timing and they match the cam card.
Heads appear to have had some work done, although possibly not a full port job. Valves look stock size.
Headers obviously are were done, and are decent quality.
Nitrous system was done pretty well, in spite of it's current shabby look.

Beyond that, there's not much difference from stock:

Intake was definitely not extrude honed or fully ported. Plenum looks stock also.
The engine did not have the RPW 3.2 stroker kit in it (as mentioned previously in the thread). It appears to be a Diamante SOHC long block, however it had DOHC pistons in it. It's possible that they did intend to build it properly, as the rods are full-floating, and then maybe the deal on the stoker kit fell through or something. However the DOHC pistons they used were not for full-floaters as they had no pin lock groves. Instead they used Teflon wrist pin buttons, which subsequently died 15 years later when I got it running
No idea if the Haltech worked well or not, it was the first thing to go when I got the car. It was said that they never got it tuned right past 3k (which is a separate map on the Haltech). The timing was way off when I got it also. Also had stock injectors still.

It did finally run decent on a stock computer once I got most of the bugs worked out. Then the trans puked, and that's when i tore it all apart and found all this.

Now, the reason i say all this is not because I'm angry that it isn't what we all thought it was. At the end of the day I still got a clean rust free 61k mile Daytona w/ a lot of history and good parts for a great deal. I'm just trying to put facts out there about this car, since previously no one really knew. And the one fact I find kind of intriguing, is that it probably ran it's fastest on a stock Chrysler 3.0 w/ cams, exhaust and nitrous

So in conclusion, I think I've decided go right back to it's beginning and start back exactly like Rick did, w/ a stock 3.0. This time, with the ability to properly tune it (and hopefully the trans too), thanks to BoostButton Then, I'll throw the nitrous back on it and see if I can put it back in the 12's again.

And after that, is uncharted territory

[OG_SRT4]

It is good to know the facts and its educational, I did not know that those 3.0 cars in mostly stock trim with nitrous could manage anything near 12s.
For someone like me in California where I'm limited on mods due to smog it shows how I could be mostly smog legal and still have fun with a Craigslist find.

[Vigo]

I think 12s seemed like a big deal back in the day, but nowadays it's pretty clear that with full tuning ability you could probably run a completely bone stock car (other than necessary clutch or trans mods) into the 11s just with well-tuned direct port nitrous, and that's to say nothing of actually modifying the engine.

If this car becomes the first car to have a re-calibrated 604 TCM running in it, that will be a bigger deal to me then its entire past life which mostly seems like a long series of expensive let downs for people who didn't know enough about working on cars to control their own destiny.

[Ondonti]

I think 12s seemed like a big deal back in the day, but nowadays it's pretty clear that with full tuning ability you could probably run a completely bone stock car (other than necessary clutch or trans mods) into the 11s just with well-tuned direct port nitrous, and that's to say nothing of actually modifying the engine.

If this car becomes the first car to have a re-calibrated 604 TCM running in it, that will be a bigger deal to me then its entire past life which mostly seems like a long series of expensive let downs for people who didn't know enough about working on cars to control their own destiny.

I definitely agree that the transmission controller would blow the entire past of the car out of the water in significance. At least the mystique of the car led some people like me to play with them and do more rebust "actually modified" stuff.

Seems like that motor is still ~10:1 ish depending on chamber since it has flattops (with 4 big reliefs though). I think that compression helped. I still don't quite understand maximum nitrous dosages as it always seems to be a 1/3 improvement math. Daywalker said he put a 200 shot on his P body in ~2002-2004? and thats more then 100% hp increase which is not supposed to be possible. Not sure that 200hp jet = remotely close in real life as the engine can only ingest so much. Can spraying to much cause backfire?

[Force Fed Mopar]

From what I know, only if you spray it at too low an rpm. This car supposedly has a 175-shot system on it. I haven't done the math on it yet with the jet sizes but I think it is close.

[Vigo]

Nitrous comes out at ~1000 psi. If you angle the jet into the runner it will pressurize the downstream flow and actually cause an increased vacuum upstream. Since nitrous contains oxygen you can put direct port nitrous on an engine with a shitty intake manifold or turbo and still make as much power as you can inject with the nitrous system. Theoretically something like a stock 2.5 T1 with a 200hp top end and a 400hp bottom end should be able to make 400hp with direct port nitrous. That's an oversimplification in a way, but I still think you could spray a stock 3.0 car into the 11s with a well-tuned (progressive + timing retard) direct port setup and good traction.

[Ondonti]

Nitrous comes out at ~1000 psi. If you angle the jet into the runner it will pressurize the downstream flow and actually cause an increased vacuum upstream. Since nitrous contains oxygen you can put direct port nitrous on an engine with a shitty intake manifold or turbo and still make as much power as you can inject with the nitrous system. Theoretically something like a stock 2.5 T1 with a 200hp top end and a 400hp bottom end should be able to make 400hp with direct port nitrous. That's an oversimplification in a way, but I still think you could spray a stock 3.0 car into the 11s with a well-tuned (progressive + timing retard) direct port setup and good traction.

ignoring the 1000th I part, even if rue Intake charge was 100%nitrous there is only so much power you can make. I was reading about guys that tried blocking off the intake during runs to shoot for 100% nitrous and they found they made about the same power but caused new problems/hassles. On a Large shot I don't think your intake sees any flow. Try to go beyond that And the system backs up. I tried to research in the past if you could have a 500hp engine running a 1000+shot. This would have translated to doing a 300 shot on on a 15th 3.0 but I don't think it can Ingest enough nitrous to make the power. I also question what I thought in the past about nitrous at low rpms torque bombing cylinders and wonder if it's more about the I ability to Ingest the nitrous/fuel combo so cylinder balance gets off and some start knocking.

If we had an unlimited fuel direct injection engine then I would think more about the 1000 psi issue since fuel would go in no matter what.

[Force Fed Mopar]

There is a local guy w/ a T/A that makes 420whp on motor and 700-ish on spray. Supposedly a 250-shot, although he never really tells anyone for sure (money racer).

[Ondonti]

There is a local guy w/ a T/A that makes 420whp on motor and 700-ish on spray. Supposedly a 250-shot, although he never really tells anyone for sure (money racer).

Those numbers add up except the shot size. What that means though is if you make 160whp on motor you won't be able to double that. That is why all those mods should have had been done. Get the motor to 200whp and you are looking at even more power on spray. 280whp vs 350whp

[Vigo]

I think there is something about sonic choke that applies even with nitrous, in the same way that you have said that 2" intercooler pipes are only good up to a certain point. I think the same thing applies with intake runners and nitrous. So port CSA might have something to do with an upper limit, but i really don't think anything upstream of the nozzle matters as far as how much power can be made.

[Reaper1]

Remember that the intake charge temp is super cold when injecting the nitrous. So, the speed of sound is LESS! You certainly could choke the airflow out. BUT, the nitrous is making up for that chemically. You just have to make sure you get the right amount of fuel to go along with it. However, I don't think you can rely on the nitrous to fully make up for an engine that doesn't flow well after a certain point (which will be different for every engine). You STILL have to get air into the engine and out of it efficiently. I do tend to agree that on a nitrous car having a good exhaust system is far more important that a good intake because you have a LOT more stuff to get out than what you are initially ingesting. If the intake flow is choking at a certain point, even with the additional nitrous you are going to get to a point of diminishing returns.

Something that was never 100% found out was how heavy the car was when it was running the fast times. I know that it used to have a large stereo in it and I know Rick was into stereo competitions before he was into going fast (theoretically the car should still have the mids/highs in it as he never removed them and neither did I). I honestly don't know if the car was full weight when it ran. That would make a HUGE difference in how much power was "really" needed to run his time. I think we can safely assume the car was over 3000#'s. So, how much power are people making to get into the low 12's with a 3000# car?

I do have to agree that I think as the car was taken to different shops that unfortunately he was being taken for a ride (as was the entire community indirectly).

Adding a tunable 3.0 cal and TCM to this car will certainly add to its lore and I do think would overshadow the most recent history. I don't think that it will or should (of course my opinion) overshadow the entire history. I'm really just excited to see the car running and driving again!

I do think that a "reset" is in order as the patched together BS that I found on the car was just unacceptable (to me anyway), hence why I never got it going as I ran out of time and money (I had just started getting really serious in my college work).

[Vigo]

Well, 1000 psi coming out of the nozzle obviously does not mean 1000 psi in the entire intake port, but if your jets are angled properly you could definitely surpass the 'natural' VE of the engine. We're talking about a slightly pressurized intake port (boost). But considering how much more oxygen per volume is in nitrous compared to normal atmosphere, and how the low temps increase density of any normal atmosphere getting through, the amount of oxygen in the cylinder will go up way more than the actual volume or density of the 'charge' will.

Considering a stock 3.0 puts out ~140-150chp and here we have a minorly modded (~165 hp n/a?) engine that sprayed its way to 300+whp (calculated from 3300 race weight and ~12.5@106 because I cant remember the actual times) we already have an example of direct port nitrous more than doubling the HP of the engine.

[Ondonti]

Well, 1000 psi coming out of the nozzle obviously does not mean 1000 psi in the entire intake port, but if your jets are angled properly you could definitely surpass the 'natural' VE of the engine. We're talking about a slightly pressurized intake port (boost). But considering how much more oxygen per volume is in nitrous compared to normal atmosphere, and how the low temps increase density of any normal atmosphere getting through, the amount of oxygen in the cylinder will go up way more than the actual volume or density of the 'charge' will.

Considering a stock 3.0 puts out ~140-150chp and here we have a minorly modded (~165 hp n/a?) engine that sprayed its way to 300+whp (calculated from 3300 race weight and ~12.5@106 because I cant remember the actual times) we already have an example of direct port nitrous more than doubling the HP of the engine.

With a good automatic I don't think you need 300whp to get to 106mph at that weight.

Making more than double the WHP of a motor on spray is basically impossible, especially one that is not highly modified to "evacuate" the cylinders. Even if you spray down into the cylinders the reality is that the mixture just backs up into the intake manifold when the motor reaches its limit. At this point you start backfiring. Imagine those guys who get too much nitrous going before the converter flashes and their air cleaner blows off...:P The motor wasn't capable of inhaling that mixture at those low rpms.
150whp might be good for 250-275 even if you ran a 200shot or 300 shot. 200whp motor will make a lot more.

[Force Fed Mopar]

From what I remember reading, this car supposedly made 250 on motor and 400 on spray. No way at all to know now if that was ever true or not.

[Vigo]

It would have to have some nasty cams and good tuning to hit 250hp n/a with barely touched heads and intake, unless it was wearing different parts at that time.

As for what an engine is 'capable of inhaling', if you're pressurizing the charge then the limit is not the engine's natural VE, it becomes something else. On a turbo engine it would be heat gain or how resistant the compressor is to surging (i.e. turbo might surge and a screw blower might not under the same conditions). With nitrous you have super cold temps and aint nothing being forced backwards through that nozzle. I guess at some point traveling back up the intake to the throttle plate becomes a path of less resistance than actually going into the cylinder. Which begs the question if check valves a la 2-stroke reed valves in the runner would raise your nitrous power abilities. Analogizing further with a boosted setup, if your exhaust stream is backing up so much that you are losing all your gains to poor exhaust valve sealing and exhaust stroke pumping losses, that could be one other limit for nitrous.

I wonder now if you put a 'streamer' of thread hanging in your intake pipe and could video it, if you would be able to see intake flow slowing down or reversing direction as you increased your nitrous jet size.