The time has come to breathe life into the "Sha-Dough"!

[Ondonti]

In the pics, the wire looks huge. Is it possible the wrong wire was used for the size of the groove cut into the block?

I've only worked on one O ringed block and the wire sits only a few thou over the deck of the block. It's just enough to put a bit of extra squeeze on the underside of the fire ring of the hg. There's no receiver groove in the head. When pulled apart, there is only a slight groove pressed into the underside of the fire ring. This motor has run like this for many, many years and has never had a hg issue.

Was this block intended for a copper headgasket and then a non compressable steel fire ring on the composite headgasket fubar'd the works? That would be a huge oversight. I tried my best to stay away from copper headgaskets due to sealing issues (that usually can be solved with hylomar or maybe indian shellac) but when you have a block grooved you must have a complete headgasket setup in mind before ordering the work. Some shops should be smart enough to ask. If they don't, they will probably machine for a copper headgasket that will be able to squish and accept a steel wire massively protruding from the block.

The groove should be big enough that the wire can actually overlap slightly at the ends. Honestly we need a picture of the groove because it does sorta look like a step from the pictures. I myself have run straight copper wire with no groove and it will hold it self until you face detonation that will blow the motor if it held with an MLS gasket. Copper crushes and turns into a flat sealing ring. I have also run with welding wire in a 20 year old used composite headgasket, no groove, copper sprayed. Wire stayed put because it was able to sink into the headgasket which did not have much of a fire ring on one side. I used that to my advantage. Both of these setups were intended to have just few thousands of clearance beyond the headgasket. So for the composite headgasket setup, I chose welding wire of the proper diameter to meet the protrusion I demanded..

A proper Steel O ring setup only extends a few thousands above the block when run with an MLS gasket. This is because the steel ring will not compress. You don't want the fire ring taking ALL the load. That will beat it up in short order. A copper ring (not as strong but it will reseal if used in a groove style setup) needs to be up 2-3x as high as steel rings because they deform.

I have done some very ghetto things with headgaskets and had great success. Just requires thinking about how.

First hit on google if you search "headgasket oring" = my vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tKzyCaBvdg

Apparently I was nice enough to include video information I don't remember. A .012" thick copper wire compressed to only .004" which is near the top of what you want a steel O ring to protrude. Apparently I then tried a .022" copper wire on a different MLS gasket and suffered an oil leak. I can't really prove that the leak was caused by the copper not compressing enough as the MLS gasket was used junkyard stuff that I found in the shed.

****We really need a better picture of the groove and the wire inside and a protrusion measurement. I would assume you can measure that with a straight edge and some feeler guages.

[Lugert]

Here are some pics.
The groove is a groove, not a step.
You can see how thick the ring is and how much stick up when installed.

[Ondonti]

Way too much for a steel to steel setup. needs to be 1/3 of that at least. If that wire was copper, this would be a legit setup, or if the headgasket was copper. I don't exactly see what is happening to the wire at the ends. How exactly do they deal with that on this block?

That much protrusion steel to steel and the head is basically going to roll around on the O ring until something fails. A receiver groove is not something you would use in a steel to steel setup, especially with an MLS or composite + steel fire ring headgasket. That is a copper headgasket technique when trying to use even larger wire protrusions for more aggressive headseal.

[Vigo]

Do the ring ends overlap somewhere?

I dont know enough about o-ringing to comment on the measurement above deck but is it possible that is too tall for a composite gasket or steel fire ring and was intended for copper gasket?

Also, what part of the fire ring is the o-ring contacting? It looks like it would be pretty far to the outside, but i am not sure. A picture showing the narrow part between two cylinders would help on that one.

EDIT: Ondonti already hit all my points. haha

[Lugert]

Way too much for a steel to steel setup. needs to be 1/3 of that at least. If that wire was copper, this would be a legit setup, or if the headgasket was copper. I don't exactly see what is happening to the wire at the ends. How exactly do they deal with that on this block?

Originally it was a Copper Gasket Setup with Receiving Grooves in the head. That is how it was built. But never held a gasket (even at Idle).
Went with a thicker Copper gasket, Bad.
Went with a thinner Copper gasket, Bad.
Removed the receiving grooves with all three gaskets, again Bad.
Tried several other gaskets. Cometic, Mopar Performance and even a MP gasket for use with O-ring applications...All BAD.

[Vigo]

Ouch! I dont want to be insulting but this sounds like the beginning of a sad joke where a bad torque wrench wasnt discovered until everything else was replaced. It's hard to figure what could be the common denominator in all those combinations unless the o-ring is just located incorrectly, but looking back at the pictures it looks like its right in the middle of the fire ring area.. wtf

[Ondonti]

Originally it was a Copper Gasket Setup with Receiving Grooves in the head. That is how it was built. But never held a gasket (even at Idle).
Went with a thicker Copper gasket, Bad.
Went with a thinner Copper gasket, Bad.
Removed the receiving grooves with all three gaskets, again Bad.
Tried several other gaskets. Cometic, Mopar Performance and even a MP gasket for use with O-ring applications...All BAD.

The overlap? This still matters to me. If this is a gapless ring, I see that as a problem. If there is a gap, then we have instant headgasket failure. Overlap allows for expansion. O rings are not done like piston rings where a little blowbye is cool.

Is this a "soft" head? Have you tried other heads? How much has been decked from the head?

Obviously a .036 wire that only protrudes .014 should never be able to come out of the groove at idle in normal conditions.
I would suggest hylomar but headgasket combustion seal is another problem.

[Lugert]

Damn computers. Long reply with failure to load!!!

Anyway, I did buy a new Torque wrench to eliminate that as a possible problem.

This same builder built 4 motors for us...All Bad.
One stock rebuild gets HOT damn near instantly.

There is overlap, no gap.
.100 overlap <---Fixed

[Vigo]

That is the weirdest damn thing. So are you going to continue down this o-ring road or just start over with another block?

[Lugert]

Starting Over. Thinking of just building it stock, cast pistons and all!

[Vigo]

Seems like that would be the purest way to continue down that path of breaking 10s with stock stuff. Im sure there are people who've run 10s on composite headgaskets.. i cant remember who has put the most power through cast pistons.. I know terry ryan got his van to 115mph on cast pistons but with a small shot of nitrous. I would think that helps more than hurts, though. Id be interested to know who has put the most power through cast pistons without cooling aids like nitrous or meth.

[csxtra]

Starting Over. Thinking of just building it stock, cast pistons and all!

Reeves has been running MP composite head gaskets and MP bolts (no o rings) at well over 500WHP and 500WTQ for a few years now (but with forged slugs), so theoretically you should be able to meet your goals with that setup...as long as the tune is rock-solid and the knock sensor is tuned to the safe side to keep the cast pistons alive.

[Shadow]

Reeves has been running MP composite head gaskets and MP bolts (no o rings) at well over 500WHP and 500WTQ for a few years now (but with forged slugs), so theoretically you should be able to meet your goals with that setup...as long as the tune is rock-solid and the knock sensor is tuned to the safe side to keep the cast pistons alive.

X2 as the Charger has also been using the MP Composite but with ARP studs and copper spray for the past 8 years. (think I'm on my 3rd or 4th right now) 39psi last time out and around 550WHP and over 500WTQ without issue.

Every time I tweeked one it was from small mistakes I made and this on a block that has never been decked. (hence the copper spray)

[Pat]

X2 as the Charger has also been using the MP Composite but with ARP studs and copper spray for the past 8 years. (think I'm on my 3rd or 4th right now) 39psi last time out and around 550WHP and over 500WTQ without issue.

Every time I tweeked one it was from small mistakes I made and this on a block that has never been decked. (hence the copper spray)

I have to say, x3. While not at the same power level as James or Rob, the ScAries has been on a composite gasket (it may even be a felpro) and has been pounded on for 3 years with cast pistons and has consistently been trapping in the 124-125 mph range. I did pop one headgasket but that was completely my fault.

Another note...while I've had no trouble keeping head gaskets in place while the car is running correctly, when I did pop that one gasket, I detonated at about the 1000 foot mark, head gasket let go, I let out and rolled through at something like 11.3 @ 117 mph, so it was definitely making some power when it popped. Even at that power level, the cast T-II pistons were not damaged at all. My friends car with the o rings that I mentioned in my prior post, he detonated badly at about 1000 foot mark recently, destroyed two forged slugs and the cylinder head. When we pulled the motor apart, the head gasket looked fine but everything else was beaten to hell.

Head gasket w/no o rings = good fuse to keep bottom end together. :-)