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Thread: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    So I think I'm going to install an air to water intercooler in my van running a DOHC 2.4 with a Super 60 stage one turbo. Right now I have a Toyota Supra intercooler with 2" pipes, 10' of intercooler plumbing, and five 90* bends. The 2" pipe probably wouldn't be that big of a deal if it wasn't coupled with the five 90* bends. I'm getting a 3 psi pressure drop but I haven't measured the temperature drop yet.

    The intercooler I want to buy:
    http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...33e1ffad92d370

    I don't think I'm going to go over 350 hp. My goal is to crack 13 seconds in the quarter mile. Lower in the 13's the better.

    The heat exchanger I want to use:
    http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...33e1ffad92d370

    I think I have enough room for it. If not my next choice is:
    http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...33e1ffad92d370

    I'd love to place the intercooler on the side of the head pointing at the turbo and throttle body but the distributor is in the way. So I'm thinking about putting it over the driver side strut tower pointing at a 45* angle towards the front passenger side. I'll have to move my catch can, remove the small fuse box that holds my Ostrich, and move the big fuse box forward. I think I can make the tubing gradual enough to not inhibit flow. Or get a small Honda battery, relocate my radiator overflow bottle, and put in between the battery and the front radiator support pointing to the passenger side or between the airbox and battery pointing to the passenger side.


    If anybody has any experience or opinions (backed up with experience or facts) on air to water intercoolers I'd like to hear them because I'm new to these.

    A.J.

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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    With the power potential and heat you have to deal with daily I'd really think hard about going to the 600hp size intercooler. This one here: http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...33e1ffad92d370

    The radiator you want to use will fit right in front of the factory radiator just fine. It what my friend and I installed on his 8v turbo mini. I had pics on the web up until last week. I can email if you want them but it's pretty easy to figure out.

    You'll want to add a reservoir to the system. We used an 80's volvo pressurized cooling system overflow. Comes with a nice bracket you can bolt anywhere. Has a small inlet port on top where we drilled a "bleed" hole into the top of one of the water manifolds so any air would get easily pushed out of the i/c core and go to the reservoir where it can separate from the water. The a large port on the bottom we T'd back into the return line going to the pump. It also makes filling the system a breeze.

  3. #3
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    I just did some measuring up front. The radiator I first listed will work fine, I just can't add a separate fan because my hugh trans cooler only allows me 3" between the trans cooler and the grill. I'll just have to tie my radiator fan into whatever circuit I decided to turn my intercooler water pump on with.

    For a reservoir, I was just going to use an overflow bottle like the radiator overflow.

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    turbo addict BIG PSI's Avatar
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    I like your thinking on the parts AJ

    Chuck

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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I just did some measuring up front. The radiator I first listed will work fine, I just can't add a separate fan because my hugh trans cooler only allows me 3" between the trans cooler and the grill. I'll just have to tie my radiator fan into whatever circuit I decided to turn my intercooler water pump on with.
    The fan that comes with the kit is only 2.5" deep so it should fit up there.

    For a reservoir, I was just going to use an overflow bottle like the radiator overflow.
    You want the coolant to be able to cycle through it. Here's a video with the volvo overflow tank, must be back east because of the rust. They're out of 740's.



    The factory bracket is the perfect size to put a Mopar Performance sticker on it too

    Can you fit the bigger "600hp" intercooler? For $20 you really get a lot more for your money too. I know you don't "plan" to run more than 350hp but a SRT should make that pretty easy which in case you'll be out of intercooler and you should know that's not what we want to do

    You're getting 3psi of pressure drop from the outlet of the turbo to the throttle body? At how much boost? That's not as bad as I thought it would be. But still gives you room to improve as I'm sure you're aware of.

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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    Nice, that's what I am doing too.
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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    I like that Volvo bottle. I think that's what I'll go with. Could you post a drawing of how you plumbed it in? I'm having a hard time visualizing how you did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    The fan that comes with the kit is only 2.5" deep so it should fit up there.
    I only have 3" between my trans cooler and the grill. The I.C. radiator is 2" and the fan is 2.5" making 4.5". I'd have to get a different trans cooler and I'd really rather not because it's hugh. I turned on my radiator fan and I can feel it pulling though my air to air i.c. now. If I get them closer together and put a little foam between the engine radiator and the trans cooler, and the trans cooler and the i.c. radiator I shouldn't need another fan.

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    Can you fit the bigger "600hp" intercooler? For $20 you really get a lot more for your money too. I know you don't "plan" to run more than 350hp but a SRT should make that pretty easy which in case you'll be out of intercooler and you should know that's not what we want to do
    If I do it'll be tight. The hood slopes down going from 5.5" to 3" plus I have hood louver drip trays taking up space.

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    You're getting 3psi of pressure drop from the outlet of the turbo to the throttle body? At how much boost? That's not as bad as I thought it would be. But still gives you room to improve as I'm sure you're aware of.
    At 10 psi and above.

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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I like that Volvo bottle. I think that's what I'll go with. Could you post a drawing of how you plumbed it in? I'm having a hard time visualizing how you did it.
    I don't have any pics online anymore and can't post pics here. I can email you some if you'd like. But basically run a line from the outlet of the pump, to the intercooler, then there's a main port on the intercooler that goes back to the pump. Now where that line comes out of the intercooler and goes to the pump, the big block of aluminum it's tapped into, we drilled a small 1/4 or 1/8" NPT hole into the top and ran a line from there, to the small nipple on the side of the Volvo bottle, So that if air got into the intercooler it would be pushed out of the intercooler and into the bottle along with coolant. On the bottom of the bottle is a larger nipple, from there we ran a line and tee'd it into the big return line from the intercooler. So the pump sucks from both the intercooler and the reservoir. Basically it's set up like a regular cooling system with a pressurized overflow system. My g/f's jeep liberty is the same setup for it's cooling system.


    I only have 3" between my trans cooler and the grill. The I.C. radiator is 2" and the fan is 2.5" making 4.5". I'd have to get a different trans cooler and I'd really rather not because it's hugh. I turned on my radiator fan and I can feel it pulling though my air to air i.c. now. If I get them closer together and put a little foam between the engine radiator and the trans cooler, and the trans cooler and the i.c. radiator I shouldn't need another fan.
    can you move the trans cooler over by the oil cooler? I tried looking for pics of your setup but couldn't find any though I know I've seen them before. The thing is the fan to cool the i/c coolant should be on 99% of the time IMO though I could be wrong. Your rad fan isn't coming on till 200+ degrees and you don't really want it to run all the time. I'm just thinking outloud about it so I'm not really sure if it HAS to be that way or not. It's just the way I would do it if I could.


    If I do it'll be tight. The hood slopes down going from 5.5" to 3" plus I have hood louver drip trays taking up space.
    I'd try for everything I've got to use the bigger i/c. That head flows a lot of air and once it's allowed to breath even at lower boost levels (remember boost doesn't affect CFM) it'll make plenty of power.

  9. #9
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    can you move the trans cooler over by the oil cooler? I tried looking for pics of your setup but couldn't find any though I know I've seen them before. The thing is the fan to cool the i/c coolant should be on 99% of the time IMO though I could be wrong. Your rad fan isn't coming on till 200+ degrees and you don't really want it to run all the time. I'm just thinking outloud about it so I'm not really sure if it HAS to be that way or not. It's just the way I would do it if I could.
    I can't move the trans cooler, it's too big. I supplied some pictures.

    Mine is the one on the left. The one one the right is a stock van trans cooler.




    This picture has my old stock trans cooler installed. You can see the picture above how much of the radiator it covers.


    I plan on turning the radiator/i.c. fan on a few different ways. I'm not going to rely on the fan schedule in the computer for cooling off the engine to keep the i.c. cool. 1) A hobbs switch. Once any amount of boost is achieved the fan/water pump will kick on. 2) A temp switch. The hottest I've seen AZ is 125*. If I have a temp switch in the i.c. for 125*+ the fan/water pump kicks on to cool the i.c. Depending on how often the fan kicks on I may have to up the temp on setting. 3) A manual switch. If I'm sitting In traffic or stop and go traffic and things start to heat up or I have a hobbs or temp switch failure (it's happened) I can turn the fan/i.c. water pump on.

    I plan on having a duel air charge temp sensor http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...ff6bfa56121b3e and a water temp sensor in the intercooler to monitor things.

  10. #10
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    I ordered my air to water intercooler kit. I went with the 350 HP intercooler. I went with a different heat exchanger. I went with the next size smaller than the one I listed. The largest one without the radiator cap. I'll post pictures of everything when I get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    You'll want to add a reservoir to the system. We used an 80's volvo pressurized cooling system overflow. Comes with a nice bracket you can bolt anywhere. Has a small inlet port on top where we drilled a "bleed" hole into the top of one of the water manifolds so any air would get easily pushed out of the i/c core and go to the reservoir where it can separate from the water. The a large port on the bottom we T'd back into the return line going to the pump. It also makes filling the system a breeze.
    You mean like this:

  11. #11
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    honestly I think you'll max that intercooler pretty quick once you get your tune dialed in. That's the overflow we used. I want to wire wheel that sticker off the bracket and put a nice Mopar Performance sticker in it's place.

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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    I was thinking of putting the heat exchanger/radiator under the car, with hydronic baseboard finned tube to carry the coolant along the way. The attached pdf is of an example of steel/steel in 1.25" ID but it can be had in less expensive 5/8" and 3/4" in copper/copper or copper/aluminum. Comes in sticks of 2, 3, 4, 6, 8 foot. Coils too.

    I like the 2.5" I/O on the 350 and for the crossflow 16Vs I'd like to be able to fit one over the transaxle but get one with the inlet at the opposite end of the IC from the outlet. Like this one - "type 8" http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...33e1ffad92d370

    What's the math on the 350 vs the 600 HP? I assume less lag/quicker spool with the smaller unit. Making it fit in terms of short fat straight pipes is another issue, of course.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by johnl; 04-09-2013 at 08:51 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  13. #13

    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    The heat exchanger is key to the a/w system. Keeping the water cold is very important, and the only thing that does that is the heat exchanger. The IC does a good job of getting it hot, I can tell you that much. I would have encouraged you to use an air conditioning condenser rather than a radiator style of heat exchanger.

    I find most radiators with end tanks like that don't use the full core for cooling. They seem to be designed for high flow, and not to maximize the exposure of the water to the ambient air. An AC condenser makes the water sit in the ambient air for a long time, hopefully making it as cold as possible.

    The area is also important. If you don't have the area like a front mount, the water just becomes a thermal dump rather than a cooling medium and that's not good for street use. My friend used a heat exchanger that was about the size of a side mount intercooler from frozen boost and it could not pull the heat out of the water fast enough. You'd have to wait until the temps went down to get 1/2 a pull.

    That's just my experience, if you find the radiator works well and fits your system, then for sure use it. Don't be afraid to try an AC condenser if it isn't up to the job.

  14. #14
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    I've been driving it for a couple of days. On a 95ish degree day, going into the i.c. under a hard pull is 220*-230* and coming out is 120*-130*. Cruising it's about 113*.

    Here is my heat exchanger mounting:

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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    Those are some nice temps.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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  16. #16
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    AJ - got any pics of the AWIC in the engine bay?

    Using Ford/Bosch pump, SC Mustang heat exchanger, small Volvo (or maybe it is from a Saab?) overflow/fill tank. I'll take a pic and post it.

    I've got an adjustable boost switch to turn on the pump but I'm thinking it best to leave the pump constant on and just switch the 6" fans that I might get. It would be best to switch the pump by temperature but I can't find any that turn on at 90* or 100* F. Thought about charge air temp sensors but they are not switches; thought too about cold start injector switch but that turns off after temp rise; can you think of a common switch that turns on and stays on at some temperature close to say 100* F ?

    The SC Mustang heat exchanger easily fits in the Charger nose of the Ramerati; actually I should have gone with a larger Chinese one but I got it on ebay for $100 and figured it is OEM quality and it does cool a V8 after all.



    Here's pics of where I am so far . . .
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by johnl; 04-24-2014 at 06:40 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  17. #17
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    Summit sells switches that go low enough to turn on I believe at 60 degrees. I'll see if I can find a link real quick
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  18. #18
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    Quote Originally Posted by johnl View Post
    AJ - got any pics of the AWIC in the engine bay?

    Using Ford/Bosch pump, SC Mustang heat exchanger, small Volvo (or maybe it is from a Saab?) overflow/fill tank. I'll take a pic and post it.

    I've got an adjustable boost switch to turn on the pump but I'm thinking it best to leave the pump constant on and just switch the 6" fans that I might get. It would be best to switch the pump by temperature but I can't find any that turn on at 90* or 100* F. Thought about charge air temp sensors but they are not switches; thought too about cold start injector switch but that turns off after temp rise; can you think of a common switch that turns on and stays on at some temperature close to say 100* F ?

    The SC Mustang heat exchanger easily fits in the Charger nose of the Ramerati; actually I should have gone with a larger Chinese one but I got it on ebay for $100 and figured it is OEM quality and it does cool a V8 after all.



    Here's pics of where I am so far . . .









    I run my AWIC water pump all the time. I was thinking about putting it on a manual switch for long trips (like to the Cali SDAC meeting) but no, I can't think of a temp switch in the 100* temp range. I did a search on line awhile ago for a 100* temp switch when I was installing my AWIC and found some but I don't remember the web site(s). I upgraded the heat exchanger in my van to this one: http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...c2fba5703326f8 and it made a difference in the speed in which it cools the air charge back down after a long hard pull. So the bigger your heat exchanger the better.

  19. #19
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...=&pgGrp=search


    Here you go :thumbup:
    And it was Jegs
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  20. #20
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    Re: Going to upgrade to an air/water intercooler

    Thanks to you both.

    Looks good AJ. That bigger exchanger is 12x12x2 (144 inches) and the 2004-07 Mustang exchanger is the same (6 x 24 x 2), so that's good news to me. On the Fords, the pumps are not constant on . . . . and I read that they do go out but it seems that they really should run all the time, that is - when not in boost, to build heat inertia ahead of the next boost cycle.

    85boostbox, thanks for that link; I'll go to Derale's site to get the specifics; the control box appears to be big enough to have a relay in it. And, it looks like that probe is external, not in the coolant, and, is it to be zip tied to the back side of the radiator/exchanger?

    Edit - there's a drawing - probe goes inside. They offer a normal (150* and up) adjustable controller with a 3/8th NPT sensor so I emailed to ask if the lower temp controller could be sold with a lower range NPT threaded sensor.
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    Last edited by johnl; 04-24-2014 at 08:41 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

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