Smoking!? And not the tires :(

[Dan15]

Hey this could be a really simple fix and that's what I'm hoping... but any help would be great. Here's the deal. The motor is a 2.5L with forged Wisecos. Has 2k miles on the rebuild and it's burning oil. Motor hasn't seen more than 15psi during break in and it kinda seems like maybe the rings never seated correctly? But that's what I'm hoping it's not! ha. It smokes under boost and on deceleration but under idle and normal driving there isn't any visible smoke. Just uses a little oil still during normal driving. Like a quarter quart every couple days of driving to work and back.


So.... do these symptoms by chance at all relate to PCV issues?? Turbo going out? Or does it sound like the Rings are bad?? If the rings didn't seat during the break in what would I Have to do to fix it?? any other ideas as to what would cause symptoms like this? Thanks!!

[jckrieger]

Did you measure the ring gaps on the Wisecos when they were installed? I fought an oil consumption on my old CSX with a 2.5L bottom end with Wiscos and it turns out the oil control rings weren't right. I measured the top two rings, but I never measured the oil control rings. I fought the issue so long that I actually re-blocked the engine to try and get bores that were in better shape. Needless to say, I was pretty pissed off when I realized I had received the wrong oil control rings.

I'd bet you $1 that if you pull the head and yank a piston, you'll find the oil control rings have no tension on the cylinder bore. On my pistons, you could remove the top two rings from the piston and then drop the piston back in the bore without a spring compressor.

Hey this could be a really simple fix and that's what I'm hoping... but any help would be great. Here's the deal. The motor is a 2.5L with forged Wisecos. Has 2k miles on the rebuild and it's burning oil. Motor hasn't seen more than 15psi during break in and it kinda seems like maybe the rings never seated correctly? But that's what I'm hoping it's not! ha. It smokes under boost and on deceleration but under idle and normal driving there isn't any visible smoke. Just uses a little oil still during normal driving. Like a quarter quart every couple days of driving to work and back.


So.... do these symptoms by chance at all relate to PCV issues?? Turbo going out? Or does it sound like the Rings are bad?? If the rings didn't seat during the break in what would I Have to do to fix it?? any other ideas as to what would cause symptoms like this? Thanks!!

[turbovanman²]

I really need to make an article about this, lol.

What do the plugs look like? Are they covered in oil or just one side? If you look in the plug holes into the cylinder, are the piston tops wet? If the plugs are clean, drop the DP and see if the SV is wet. If the plugs are perfectly clean, it can only come from 2 area's, exhaust guides and/or turbo, if the plugs are soaked, rings, if one side, intake valve guides or seals.

[Chris W]

How soon do you see the smoke? If the engine is still relatively cold and you are seeing smoke then the oil is being burned in the combustion chamber. That's the only place hot enough to turn oil into smoke when the engine has not fully warmed up yet. Rings, intake, exhaust valve seals and guides could be the source.


Chris-TU

[Dan15]

Did you measure the ring gaps on the Wisecos when they were installed? I fought an oil consumption on my old CSX with a 2.5L bottom end with Wiscos and it turns out the oil control rings weren't right. I measured the top two rings, but I never measured the oil control rings. I fought the issue so long that I actually re-blocked the engine to try and get bores that were in better shape. Needless to say, I was pretty pissed off when I realized I had received the wrong oil control rings.
I'd bet you $1 that if you pull the head and yank a piston, you'll find the oil control rings have no tension on the cylinder bore. On my pistons, you could remove the top two rings from the piston and then drop the piston back in the bore without a spring compressor.

I did not measure the ring gaps on the wisecos because this is on a car that I'm looking into buying... and I'm trying to figure out what i'm getting myself into ha. He had the motor built by a machine shop that has built 3 motors for him in the past without any issues. But assuming I get it and it ends up being the rings then i'll definitely check that first!!!

What should the gap sizes be? I've heard some say top ring gap is more then second but then i've heard the second should be bigger to allow venting of pressure and prevent "ring flutter" or something like that where pressure builds up between the rings? What'd you set yours to?

I really need to make an article about this, lol.
What do the plugs look like? Are they covered in oil or just one side? If you look in the plug holes into the cylinder, are the piston tops wet? If the plugs are clean, drop the DP and see if the SV is wet. If the plugs are perfectly clean, it can only come from 2 area's, exhaust guides and/or turbo, if the plugs are soaked, rings, if one side, intake valve guides or seals.

An article on Smoking would be awesome!! haha But seriously a smoke diagnosis article would be sweet. And like I said it's on a car I'm probably gonna be buying so I'll have to do this once I get down there to look at it. But thank you for all the tips. Question about oil on the plugs though... you asked if the plug was covered in oil or just one side? Do you mean just like half of the plug will be covered in oil or....?? Not sure on that. Thanks.

How soon do you see the smoke? If the engine is still relatively cold and you are seeing smoke then the oil is being burned in the combustion chamber. That's the only place hot enough to turn oil into smoke when the engine has not fully warmed up yet. Rings, intake, exhaust valve seals and guides could be the source.
Chris-TU

He says he doesn't actually see any smoke until he hits boost or on deceleration sometimes. But it'll burn through oil pretty quick with just normal driving (aprox. 1/4 quart every few days of driving to work and back). If it was rings wouldn't it smoke all the time? At least a little bit all the time? And same with the turbo, if its the turbo they smoke almost all the time right? I've had two or three turbos go out and you definitely knew it from the smoke signals it threw out haha.




My plan when I go look at it is to do a compression test and then a leak down test. The deal is so good that I'm almost definitely buying it unless he's lied to me about a ton of things. I'm just trying to get a better idea of what i'm getting into and what to do once I have it! Thanks for all your help guys!!


-Daniel

[turbovanman²]

I did not measure the ring gaps on the wisecos because this is on a car that I'm looking into buying... and I'm trying to figure out what i'm getting myself into ha. He had the motor built by a machine shop that has built 3 motors for him in the past without any issues. But assuming I get it and it ends up being the rings then i'll definitely check that first!!!

What should the gap sizes be? I've heard some say top ring gap is more then second but then i've heard the second should be bigger to allow venting of pressure and prevent "ring flutter" or something like that where pressure builds up between the rings? What'd you set yours to?





An article on Smoking would be awesome!! haha But seriously a smoke diagnosis article would be sweet. And like I said it's on a car I'm probably gonna be buying so I'll have to do this once I get down there to look at it. But thank you for all the tips. Question about oil on the plugs though... you asked if the plug was covered in oil or just one side? Do you mean just like half of the plug will be covered in oil or....?? Not sure on that. Thanks.

Ring gap on the compression rings won't cause oil burning unless they butted together and scored the bore.

Yep, half the plug, like someone held it sideways and sprayed half of it with crud.

[Dan15]

Ring gap on the compression rings won't cause oil burning unless they butted together and scored the bore.

Yep, half the plug, like someone held it sideways and sprayed half of it with crud.

But he thinks the rings might have never seated properly? Would that cause oil burning?


Ok I understand the plug thing. Thanks!!

[turbovanman²]

But he thinks the rings might have never seated properly? Would that cause oil burning?


Ok I understand the plug thing. Thanks!!

Yes, if the rings didn't seat properly they CAN cause oil burning, not always.

[Dan15]

So he says it burns oil under deceleration (probably downshifting type deceleration) and when its in boost. So to my understanding... wouldn't the crankcase be seeing the most vacuum possible during that type of deceleration?? So if it was rings it shouldn't smoke under deceleration because the oil would be getting pulled away from the rings not leaking through right?? Maybe i'm way off and maybe the oil and the rings don't really get affected that much by the crankcase pressue but idk ha.

[trannybuster]

Needs to check turbo, mine does this very thing, in fact I couldnt get rid of spark knock last year becasue the #@&$@ like new T3/T4 is leaking, my intercooler lines are wet with oil.

[Dan15]

I had a good conversation with him about it all and got some more details. IC lines are all clean, SV is clean, oil becomes black very quickly after an oil change?? That should narrow it down right? Hopefully... Haha. Fuel fouling the oil? Rings?

---------- Post added at 12:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 AM ----------

Also, he had the smoking issue, thought it was he head. Has the head fully rebuilt and same issue. From talking to him he seemed to know his stuff pretty good and went through a huge list of things he checked and it's all pointing him to the rings. Maybe the very first post in response to my question was the problem ha. Oil rings all messed up or something with the rings and improper install. Any other thoughts or ideas??

[wallace]

Was this with the rings supplied with the pistons or with a set bought separately? I had the same issue with Wiseco's in a 2.5.

Did you measure the ring gaps on the Wisecos when they were installed? I fought an oil consumption on my old CSX with a 2.5L bottom end with Wiscos and it turns out the oil control rings weren't right. I measured the top two rings, but I never measured the oil control rings. I fought the issue so long that I actually re-blocked the engine to try and get bores that were in better shape. Needless to say, I was pretty pissed off when I realized I had received the wrong oil control rings.

I'd bet you $1 that if you pull the head and yank a piston, you'll find the oil control rings have no tension on the cylinder bore. On my pistons, you could remove the top two rings from the piston and then drop the piston back in the bore without a spring compressor.

[Chris W]

We wrote an article on smoking in the knowledge center. Its mostly focused on Turbochargers but at least its a start.

Chris-TU

[Dan15]

We wrote an article on smoking in the knowledge center. Its mostly focused on Turbochargers but at least its a start.

Chris-TU

Ok thanks I'll definitely check that out!

Was this with the rings supplied with the pistons or with a set bought separately? I had the same issue with Wiseco's in a 2.5.

Hey Wallace Was yours the ones supplied with the pistons or were they different ones? Same issue huh?? Just where the oil ring was to small but the compression rings were the right ones??

And for both Wallace and the other guy with this issue... To fix it did you buy a whole ring set and just replace the individual oil rings or did you replace all the rings on each piston?

[turbo84voyager]

I am having the same problem. No oil comming from the turbo but im burning a quart every 700 miles if not less and the oil is black within 100 miles. I tried several different things with the PCV and I was going to try a catch can. I dont really see any smoke but I can smell it burning oil under boost. At idle, no smell at all. I gave up with mobil 1 and it just gets reg oil anymore. There is about 12K on the engine and the oil burning has only got worse. I properly broke in the engine and after break in it got mobil 1 twice a year so just about every 2K. I do have spark knock issues as well. This is a 2.5 with wiseco's. I am running stock size pistons. For a while I figured the machine shop screwed something up ( I was busy and didnt have time to assemble the shortblock) but after seeing this more and more there must be a problem with Wiseco's rings. One thing I noticed the last time I had the head off to get rid of the G head, the cylinder walls had more wear in about 7K then I have seen in these engines with 150K. I am going by the amount of crosshatch in the cylinder walls. I pretty much gave up with this engine and will be pulling it in the summer to install a 2.4.

[jckrieger]

In my case it was the rings that were supplied with the pistons from Wiseco, Std size, 2.5L. Ring gaps were good on the top 2 rings, but the oil control rings were messed up. Symptoms were exactly as you described, including the consumption rate and black oil. Compression was good, and everything was clean. Even the plugs didn't look *too* bad. Luckily, for some reason Chris W actually stocked new Wiseco rings so for about $100 I was back in business... and the replacement set fit correctly.

[Dan15]

In my case it was the rings that were supplied with the pistons from Wiseco, Std size, 2.5L. Ring gaps were good on the top 2 rings, but the oil control rings were messed up. Symptoms were exactly as you described, including the consumption rate and black oil. Compression was good, and everything was clean. Even the plugs didn't look *too* bad. Luckily, for some reason Chris W actually stocked new Wiseco rings so for about $100 I was back in business... and the replacement set fit correctly.

So did you change all the rings or just the oil rings? And did you hone the cylinder walls again or were they fine? Did you do it while the motor was still in the car? I'm just happy to hear its probably nothing damaging to the motor. Just something to replace fairly easy in comparison to a full rebuild.

---------- Post added at 12:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 AM ----------

I am having the same problem. . . For a while I figured the machine shop screwed something up ( I was busy and didnt have time to assemble the shortblock) but after seeing this more and more there must be a problem with Wiseco's rings. One thing I noticed the last time I had the head off to get rid of the G head, the cylinder walls had more wear in about 7K then I have seen in these engines with 150K. I am going by the amount of crosshatch in the cylinder walls.

That's scary to hear that the cylinder walls on your motor were worm pretty good. There really must be issues with Wiseco. Any comments on this Chris? since you are a vendor of these, is it an issue of the wrong part being ordered or that Wiseco sends you the wrong part? Do you have a .40 over set in stock?
This rebuild has around 1k miles or less so there shouldn't be any serious wear I'm hoping. I'm hoping I'll pull it apart put 4 oil rings on and then be good to go!!

[jckrieger]

So did you change all the rings or just the oil rings? And did you hone the cylinder walls again or were they fine? Did you do it while the motor was still in the car? I'm just happy to hear its probably nothing damaging to the motor. Just something to replace fairly easy in comparison to a full rebuild.

When I ordered the replacement rings from Chris, he provided an entire set. I don't believe I re-honed the block, as the cross-hatch was fine. I replaced all of the rings since they come as a set, and measured all of the ring gaps and also made sure the expander ring was doing its job to keep tension on the oil rings. It's all very easy to do in the car, so don't bother pulling the motor. Drop the pan and pull the head... and you'll be in good shape. It'd also be a good time to check the valve stem seals and the turbo more carefully while things are apart.

[Dan15]

When I ordered the replacement rings from Chris, he provided an entire set. I don't believe I re-honed the block, as the cross-hatch was fine. I replaced all of the rings since they come as a set, and measured all of the ring gaps and also made sure the expander ring was doing its job to keep tension on the oil rings. It's all very easy to do in the car, so don't bother pulling the motor. Drop the pan and pull the head... and you'll be in good shape. It'd also be a good time to check the valve stem seals and the turbo more carefully while things are apart.

What did you set your ring gaps to?? There's some debate on this issue and so I was trying to figure this out. So what worked for you? haha. And its true, pulling it apart a bit will give me a chance to look at the rest of the possibilities. Thanks.

[jckrieger]

What did you set your ring gaps to?? There's some debate on this issue and so I was trying to figure this out. So what worked for you? haha. And its true, pulling it apart a bit will give me a chance to look at the rest of the possibilities. Thanks.

It's too bad you didn't ask this a week ago... Last week I threw the paper away that had the ring gaps listed from that engine build. I figured, why keep documentation from a car I don't own? Typically I would just follow the ring gaps in the factory service manual for a turbo car, and maybe open them up towards the larger end of the spec. Trust me, you don't want a ring gap that is too small...