A413 transmission kit questions

[turbo84voyager]

I have a few questions about selecting a transmission rebuild kit. This is my first auto trans rebuild, I have done manual transmissions and understand how the automatics work and have done minor things to them just never a complete rebuild, so sorry if the questions are dumb. I do have the ATSG manual. This is a 413 from a 96 neon and will be bolted to a 2.4 turbo in my caravan. The trans has pretty much all of the "good" parts in it (4 clutchs, solid pinion, larger diff bearing, etc) except for the rear planet (Cast Type which I will be replacing) First any preference to frictions ( Raybestos or Borg Warner)? Has anyone ever tried the Raybestos Stage 1 performance frictions? I was planning on stock clutches +1 with 404 steels but then I saw the listing for the stage 1 and was wondering if the better clutches might be as good or better than the extra stock clutch and thinner steels. For rings should I use metal or teflon? It apears the trans currently has teflon seals, some are the split style ( I believe they are called scarf) but my understanding is the teflon can be tricky to install right especiall the non split style and the metal are the easiest to install just a little more expensive and do cause a little more wear. Last questions is reguarding the bushings. Is it really common to replace them or is there anyway to check them for wear? If they should be replaced any tips on replacing them? I didnt touch them because I dont know if they are common to be replaced so I didnt try anything.

Thanks!

[turbovanman²]

Maybe call Raybesto's and ask about the clutch's, any links to said parts? I would still put more clutch's in the front clutch, 3rd takes a lot of torque.

Scarf seals are easy to install because they are split, just use vaseline or proper trans gel/grease to keep them closed and lubed up.

If you have a high mileage trans, just replace all the bushings, but also they are easy to see if there is wear. The one's that wear the most are the front planetary set up and the front clutch.

[turbo84voyager]

I will give them a call this week and let you know what I find out.

Below is a link for them:

http://www.raybestospowertrain.com/r...115&Itemid=242

[turbo84voyager]

I called raybestos and I didn't get much information at all. The module are frictions only. Stock number of clutches. Certain applications (not ours) have more clutches and include steels. All they really said it is a better friction material. I think I am just going with 5 regular clutches.

[turbovanman²]

If you can get those upgraded discs, I would get them.

[RoadWarrior222]

I called raybestos and I didn't get much information at all. The module are frictions only. Stock number of clutches. Certain applications (not ours) have more clutches and include steels. All they really said it is a better friction material. I think I am just going with 5 regular clutches.

That sucks, guess you don't know really if they just mean "better than our el cheapo rebuilder crap" or better than stock.

[zin]

According to their PDFs, (http://www.raybestospowertrain.com/r...sell-sheet.pdf) they are one step down from their "blue plate special", which I take to be their strongest frictions.

They do mention two other levels below these "stage 1" plates so it would seem they are better than stock, but not "full race".

Personally, I'd be tempted to just "go for broke" and put in the "blue plate special" frictions... Anyone know what the drawbacks of the "better" friction would be?

Mike

[RoadWarrior222]

Swallow your fillings?

[turbo84voyager]

I dont think the blue are available for our transmissions. From reading forums about the clutches it appears quite a bit of the mod mustang and LS1 guys seem to be using them and recommend the stage 1. They say the shifts are improved. As for the blue for some reason the mustang guys say do not use them if you have a lockup converter.

If they are a good bit better its worth buying especially since there does not appear to be a good way to get more clutches in the rear pack.

The only thing that sucks about trying the stage 1's you may only be able to get them in modules ( that is the only way the local supplier has them listed) so you would need to buy a whole other set just to get the extra clutch for the direct pack. Now if they are that much better I wonder if the extra clutch is really needed???

[zin]

More is always better! ... though perhaps unnecessary.

Mike

[RoadWarrior222]

There's probably something to be said for balancing the harshness of transmission engagement to the fragility of the axles. i.e too much grab and snatch and you might be breaking stockers at 350hp when some guys are putting 450 through them pass after pass.

[zin]

Just don't completely disable the accumulators, that's what they are there for, granted, that may be easier said than done, as I'm sure some experimenting would be needed to find the balance, and most don't have the time /patience for it ...

Mike

[turbovanman²]

Just don't completely disable the accumulators, that's what they are there for, granted, that may be easier said than done, as I'm sure some experimenting would be needed to find the balance, and most don't have the time /patience for it ...

Mike

Why? We get rid of the 2nd gear accumulator all the time.

Extra clutch's are always a good idea with more than stock HP.

[black86glhs]

Why? We get rid of the 2nd gear accumulator all the time.

Extra clutch's are always a good idea with more than stock HP.

What about a stiffer spring to firm the shift but not feel like you are getting rear ended? I think that is the point. Doesn't want it to slam second.

[turbo84voyager]

Doesn't the the old Mopar performance shift kit eliminate the accumulator? I cant see it being that harsh if they got rid of it in their kit.

[RoadWarrior222]

I think it's actually necessary, accumulator tries to let it be in 2 gears at once. slipping out of one into the other. Have ANYTHING that makes clutches and bands grip harder, changed springs, changed frictions, changed pressure, changed fluid and you will break stuff. I think if you did shift kit without that, adjusted to spec and turned up line pressure, you'd feel like you hit a brick wall every 1-2 shift. I think one or two people might have "got away" with it, because they used a worn tranny, with worn/glazed frictions that weren't gonna grab all that hard whatever, and maybe they didn't tighten the bands up to FSM spec, or Simon's spec either.

---------- Post added at 11:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

Oh, ATF+4 (or +3 for that matter) is IMO "too" slippy in 3 speeds, so using that probably "gets away" with keeping the accumulator also.

[turbo84voyager]

I am curious how many people have broken parts my eliminating the accumulator. I have never done this to a trans before and had good luck using the homemade shift kit from Gary's website, but like I said earlier if MP was getting rid of it, I cant see it being that "bad" for the transmission.

The other thing while we are on the subject about breaking stuff, how many people have broken the pinion area of the transmission? Just from looking at it, it is definately a weak spot and I can see the benefit of adding some bracing, but up until recently i never remember anyone discussing this.

[black86glhs]

I was just asking as I have not rebuilt one, either. I was going by other transmissions that when removed or too stiff a spring installed, the shift will put you in the back seat. If it works in the 413, do it.

[turbovanman²]

What about a stiffer spring to firm the shift but not feel like you are getting rear ended? I think that is the point. Doesn't want it to slam second.

It will not shift that hard, its more of a firmer 1-2 shift. Even when I had my line pressure jacked up, it still wasn't teeth shattering.

I am curious how many people have broken parts my eliminating the accumulator. I have never done this to a trans before and had good luck using the homemade shift kit from Gary's website, but like I said earlier if MP was getting rid of it, I cant see it being that "bad" for the transmission.

The other thing while we are on the subject about breaking stuff, how many people have broken the pinion area of the transmission? Just from looking at it, it is definately a weak spot and I can see the benefit of adding some bracing, but up until recently i never remember anyone discussing this.

Never broken a thing due to that mod, its not as harsh as people think. If you want, you leave everything in place, then simply screw some set screws into the passages when you remove the valve body, I'll look up the size, then if you don't like it, remove the screws but you don't.

Pinion area needs beefing up, I've split one case and cracked the pinion but the last one was over 5-6 years of street use and abuse. See my sig for links to where it gets welded.

[zin]

An accumulator is there to smooth out the transition, to remove the shock load, and in this case probably to make the shifts smoother.

I'm sure changing the "grippyness" of the clutches, changing the clearances of the clutch packs/number of clutches (and therefore how quickly the engage), and raising the line pressure will all change the timing the different elements apply which could introduce their own problems.

I do like the idea of not shocking the gear-train, but if dumping the accumulator fixes more than it "breaks", I guess that's the way to go!

Mike