Board diagrams for TI/TII vs TIII SBECs

[mpgmike]

I have literally spent dozens of hours searching the EFI Tuning section. One reoccurring theme is that the non-TIII SBECs cannot be used in TIII applications due to the lack of the second coil driver circuit. I'm not that familiar with the boards, but what is between the ECU chip and the actual driver circuit? Where does Chrysler mount the extra coil driver?

The reason for the questions is maybe we can just add an extra coil driver circuit to the TI/TII boards and use them for waste spark ignition. In addition to TIII applications, TI/TII applications could easily switch to waste spark coil systems. Does anybody have any info?

Of course there would be the software concerns, but one step at a time.

Mike

[ShelGame]

If you knew what coil driver Chrysler used, you might be able to do that. But, it's not just the driver chip, there's an 8-pinchip, and several resistors, capacitors, and diodes involved in the ignition circuit. I don't know what any of the 'generic' P/N's are or any of the component values.

Probably the best bet would be to get a 3.3/3.8 SBECII. They have 3 coil drivers and 6 injector drivers. The only question I have is whether or not they have the knock sensor circuitry (since those engines did not have a knock sensor). If they do in fact have the knock sensor circuit, then they should be able to run just about anythign we'd want to do...

[85boostbox]

Would you be able to find out through the tables in the tune?

[mpgmike]

Rob, do you have a PN on that 8-pin chip? I'm thinking the ECU processor probably sends a stream to some sort of logic driver that then actuates a MOSFET. If the 8-pin chip has the ports to drive extra MOSFETs, a little hardware and a touch of software could do it. Don't know, just digging in.

On a side note, I have a '93 IROC R/T and a couple earlier SMECs laying around. I suppose I could tear them apart to see what I can find.

Mike

[ShelGame]

On the SBEC, there's an 8-pin chip for each coil driver. There's space on the board for 3 coil drivers, and 3 reated chips. I don't know what that 8-pin chip is or what it's for, honestly. The SMEC Coil driver is actually identical to the one in an old Mopar Chrome Box, beleive it or not. But, the SBEC is totally different...

[j4278h]

Probably the best bet would be to get a 3.3/3.8 SBECII. They have 3 coil drivers and 6 injector drivers. The only question I have is whether or not they have the knock sensor circuitry (since those engines did not have a knock sensor). If they do in fact have the knock sensor circuit, then they should be able to run just about anythign we'd want to do...

Would you like me to donate 1-2 to you for dissection to see if they could be used?

[minigts]

I don't think I've asked the same question, but something similar would be replacing the PMs for the 87 and earlier cars. Footprint and maintenance are the reasons I would want to want to change what we use. Sorry to piggy back off this, but I think it's along the same lines.

[RoadWarrior222]

I dunno if we really need to know what the drivers are, so much as how to functionally replicate them. i.e. steal bits of circuit from megasquirt designs etc. That will allow use of modern, available components.

I am thinking that all you need to know, is the address various outputs are expected at, and do the address decode, put a buffer on it, driver on that and Robert is your mother's brother.

---------- Post added at 08:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 AM ----------

One gotchya, might be that on a PCB with a limited number of drivers, the addresses are not fully decoded, so any one address in a range will trigger an output... so further decoding logic might be necessary on the board to decouple an existing driver from that address range, and decode it fully to it's intended address, to allow addresses in that range to be used for what they are on other modules....

That probably reads like middle earth elvish to most people. I'm hoping Rob gets my drift.

[ShelGame]

Would you like me to donate 1-2 to you for dissection to see if they could be used?

The problem is, I don't have an SBECII car to try it in.

The same should be true for other computers as well:

SMEC:
3.0V6 --> Turbo1/Turbo2 (just need to confirm the knock sensor circuit exsists in the 3.0 computer)

SBEC:
3.0V6 --> Turbo1/VNT (just need to confirm the knock sensor circuit exsists in the 3.0 computer)

---------- Post added at 09:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 AM ----------

I don't think I've asked the same question, but something similar would be replacing the PMs for the 87 and earlier cars. Footprint and maintenance are the reasons I would want to want to change what we use. Sorry to piggy back off this, but I think it's along the same lines.

I hadn't thought of that.

I did have the idea of using the logic board form a 3.0 V6 SMEC, with 2 turbo power boards to have 2 coil drivers with a SMEC. You'd have to wire the 3rd injector driver pigtail on the logic baord to the coil input on the 2nd power board.

---------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------

Oh, and if you're really interested in the SBECII, check out this guys site. He reverse engineered the SBECII boards and traces. Too bad he didn't go so far as to make a circuit diagram...

https://sites.google.com/site/mangel...bec-ii-4517652

[mpgmike]

Oh, and if you're really interested in the SBECII, check out this guys site. He reverse engineered the SBECII boards and traces. Too bad he didn't go so far as to make a circuit diagram...

https://sites.google.com/site/mangel...bec-ii-4517652

I went and saved those images. I'll pore over them after working hours. That might be enough to get started. These 8 pin chips, does anybody have a PN I can get a Data Sheet for to see exactly how they fit into the program? It is probably a bus-tied decoder that takes shot-gunned streams of data and only uses what applies to that specific driver. If that's the case, it is a matter of assigning it an address and tying it into the software with a suitable MOSFET. Starting to look good guys! We could even use TBI SMEC and SBECs for waste-spark turbo engines! A good platform for the 2.4 retrofits keeping the factory coils.

Mike

[ShelGame]

I went and saved those images. I'll pore over them after working hours. That might be enough to get started. These 8 pin chips, does anybody have a PN I can get a Data Sheet for to see exactly how they fit into the program? It is probably a bus-tied decoder that takes shot-gunned streams of data and only uses what applies to that specific driver. If that's the case, it is a matter of assigning it an address and tying it into the software with a suitable MOSFET. Starting to look good guys! We could even use TBI SMEC and SBECs for waste-spark turbo engines! A good platform for the 2.4 retrofits keeping the factory coils.

Mike

The 8-pin chip I'm talking about is Z174, 175, 176 on the board pictures. The Chrysler P/N is on there, but I have no idea what the generic P/N is (if there even is one, Chrysler had a few proprietary chips - Z126 and Z064 being good examples).

The 8-pin chip could be something like the Intersil ICL7667, but the pinout doesn't match.

[turbovanman²]

I know Risen was working on a coil driver for me to test so I can run DIS but he got busy, hoping he can get the prototype out this year for me to try.

[mpgmike]

I searched "4393560", which is the number represented in the drawings I snatched from the linked site. So far, I'm not coming up with much. Perhaps after tracing the lines it might make more sense. It might take a couple days, but this looks good.

Mike

[zin]

In a similar vein, were the early T1 (log) cars fully proprietary in the electronics side of things? I know Bosch was involved and was curious if anyone had looked into the possibility that Chrysler might have partnered with, or used Bosch development software...

If they did, perhaps some editing software exists that might make this process easier, and Rob's life much easier!

Mike

[mpgmike]

I'm going to have to pull some boxes apart. I tried printing out the images from that site, but even being able to identify where the pins go, I don't know which one is pin 1. I've had absolutely no luck finding Z176 (4393560 Harris/Intersil) data sheet. I don't know what that sucker does, so replicating it in an additional driver would take more guessing than any of us have time for (trial & error).

I am meeting with some important folks tomarrow. May be able to start digging Wednesday. I think this is an awesome idea if we can get compatible parts.

Mike

[Reaper1]

I'm actually pretty interesting in running DIS COP ignition. I thought there was *1* person who had that working off of stock electronics. I don't know if it was wasted spark, though.

[RoadWarrior222]

I'm going to have to pull some boxes apart. I tried printing out the images from that site, but even being able to identify where the pins go, I don't know which one is pin 1. I've had absolutely no luck finding Z176 (4393560 Harris/Intersil) data sheet. I don't know what that sucker does, so replicating it in an additional driver would take more guessing than any of us have time for (trial & error).

I've got some offline "dead tree" references, I'll see if I can find anything on it tomorrow.

[RoadWarrior222]

No luck, but I was running across some 439xx-xx which crossed to CMOS 4000 series logic chips.

[RoadWarrior222]

Wild guess, suspecting it to be 4000 series, having been made by Harris, 8 pin and some sort of buffer or driver, CD40107BE
http://www.chipcatalog.com/TI/CD40107BE.htm
Couldn't find a linkable datasheet, damn sites have you going round in circles these days.

[ShelGame]

Wild guess, suspecting it to be 4000 series, having been made by Harris, 8 pin and some sort of buffer or driver, CD40107BE
http://www.chipcatalog.com/TI/CD40107BE.htm
Couldn't find a linkable datasheet, damn sites have you going round in circles these days.

Doesn't make sense for it to be just a dual NAND gate. It should be some sort of driver (pre-driver?) for the big MOSFET that drives the coil.