Maserati block..Whats different?

[Warren Stramer]

What all is the differance between a regular production common block and a Masi block? And has anyone here sonic tested the cyl. wall thickness on a Masi block? What did you find?
And finally, Were they as heavily cast as a TIII block?

[2.216VTurbo]

See here's the thing Warren, your thread says Maserati in the title so I feel kinda obligated to respond with something useful but problem is, the only 'built' Masi motor I have I started with just the head and intake manifold and built the rest of the motor around it. The block started life in an 89 TII LeBaron GTC. So I've never had a true Masi block sonic checked. As far as 'Visual' differences, just some machining on the front bosses for Det sensor and and IN manifold brace. The pre June build dates in the 89 16V Masi's aren't even common block motors. I'll follow this thread and see if I can learn something about them too

[RoadWarrior222]

LOL whut? Alan doesn't know????? The Mayans were right, the world ended.

[glhs727]

Maybe Rick D can chime in....

[Warren Stramer]

See here's the thing Warren, your thread says Maserati in the title so I feel kinda obligated to respond with something useful but problem is, the only 'built' Masi motor I have I started with just the head and intake manifold and built the rest of the motor around it. The block started life in an 89 TII LeBaron GTC. So I've never had a true Masi block sonic checked. As far as 'Visual' differences, just some machining on the front bosses for Det sensor and and IN manifold brace. The pre June build dates in the 89 16V Masi's aren't even common block motors. I'll follow this thread and see if I can learn something about them too

I expected more out of you Alan, but you can't know everything can you........kidding aside, I have most of the parts collected to build my 700HP 8V ya you read right, I want the foundation to be the strongest, best block I can find so I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about the various castings.
Thanks to Shadow, I have a BUNCH of pre 90's common blocks, and I have done extensive sonic mapping of all the blocks I have here and none of them are as thick in the bores as the engine I had been running all these years which is a 93 block.
I have been making lots of calls. Have to get something soon If I'm going to make SDAC. I dont want to miss the chance to run at Indy.

[turbovanman²]

Have you checked out the TIII blocks? they are supposed to the thickest, hardest, best factory machined blocks around.

[ShelGame]

Have you checked out the TIII blocks? they are supposed to the thickest, hardest, best factory machined blocks around.

By my understanding, the 2.5 tall deck blocks have the thickest cylidner walls and they're basically the same bottom end structure as a common block.

[GLHNSLHT2]

so is a Masi block just a 2.5 dakota block or is the 2.5 dakota block a Masi block. Because as far as I know the machining for the Det sensor and intake brace is the same machining for mounting it in a RWD configuration right?

[BadAssPerformance]

none of them are as thick in the bores as the engine I had been running all these years which is a 93 block.

What did it start life as, T-III? 2.5 T-I? I could see the 16V blocks being designed stronger. I think the "strongest 8V 2.2L engine was supposed to be the 89-90 T-IV block, maybe 5-digits knows more bout that? Which block does Slowe run?

Have to get something soon If I'm going to make SDAC. I dont want to miss the chance to run at Indy.

Is there an issue with the current block? Hope you can make it out Warren! Did you notice the Weekend after SDAC is tentatively (not confirmed) Monster Mopar in Indy too?

[Warren Stramer]

I have a bare T-IV block. It is the thinnest poorest cast block of all my common blocks. You just cannot assume anything I guess.

I do not want to use a "tall deck" block for a couple of reasons.

The block that I built back in 1999, that is currently in the car, and has not been out of the car since I built it (aprox.375 runs) was a 2.5 92-93 tbi block. It had average .220 wall thickness.
I cracked it at a race at BIR last June. Hairline crack #1 cyl. at the top.

I located a new, never run DC block, the owner said he was willing to sell, but he cant/wont give me a price

Maybe I'm a little fussy,(understatement) but when you are going to drop a bunch of money into a max effort deal like this, and before you start shipping blocks across the country, I would like to be pretty darn sure that what i'm starting with is a useable piece.
My idea of a useable core would be not more than .010 overbore, not decked more than .010, crank main housing bores not off on any journal (alignment) by more than .002, obviously no cracks anywhere, and little to no core shift with cylinder thickness at least .220 thrust and non thrust sides.
If you knock out the expansion plugs and look closely at the mid section of the cyl. walls many blocks have a deep groove where the casting cores meet, some severe.

I have read alot about TIII blocks being the thickest-best, but I cannot find anyone who has personally sonic checked any. I suppose it is logical that they should have been made the strongest, but I wouldnt bet on it.

A TIII is working out GREAT for Brian, I guess that is probably what I should be searchin for.........Any leads?

---------- Post added at 10:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 PM ----------

And while on the subject, What is the best, cheapest method of shipping a block cross country?

[BadAssPerformance]

I have a bare T-IV block. It is the thinnest poorest cast block of all my common blocks. You just cannot assume anything I guess.

Nope, guess you can't. Funny thing, I had a New 1996 T-IV short block from Mopar and cracked a stock piston and being under 12/12 I simple got another one... the 1997 T-IV replacement was different than the '96 one... not drilled for balance shaft oiling, and no forged crank Same part number too.

The block that I built back in 1999, that is currently in the car, and has not been out of the car since I built it (aprox.375 runs) was a 2.5 92-93 tbi block. It had average .220 wall thickness.

Interesting, wonder if being '92-'93 it was thicker because thsoe were the years the T-III blocks were made and they did some commonization? ..or just luck?

I cracked it at a race at BIR last June. Hairline crack #1 cyl. at the top.

Ouch Curious, was it filled?

A TIII is working out GREAT for Brian, I guess that is probably what I should be searchin for.........Any leads?

Possibly

And while on the subject, What is the best, cheapest method of shipping a block cross country?

Used to be Greyhound, put it in a plastic tote and a ride for ~$75 I'd wrap it nicely tho, make sure it doesn't bounce

[RoadWarrior222]

BTW I thought we'd just figured out something in the last year (Or could be a bit longer) about "the weakest link" in blocks being a casting seam that you can see with the freeze plugs pulled. The more of a divot it is, seeming to correlate to a higher chance of block failure, and I guess ones that are marginal right along the block could cause distortion. I'm not entirely sure if you can "catch" it reliably by sampling block thickness, meaning it might be thick enough all round but for a about an inch by an eight thin patch on the cylinder wall where the thin spot is.

Anyway, that would seem to indicate that it doesn't really matter what the "general" thickness of a particular type of block is, if that seam might be the weak link in all of them, and durability depend on how thin or thick it is.

[Warren Stramer]

BTW I thought we'd just figured out something in the last year (Or could be a bit longer) about "the weakest link" in blocks being a casting seam that you can see with the freeze plugs pulled. The more of a divot it is, seeming to correlate to a higher chance of block failure, and I guess ones that are marginal right along the block could cause distortion. I'm not entirely sure if you can "catch" it reliably by sampling block thickness, meaning it might be thick enough all round but for a about an inch by an eight thin patch on the cylinder wall where the thin spot is.

Anyway, that would seem to indicate that it doesn't really matter what the "general" thickness of a particular type of block is, if that seam might be the weak link in all of them, and durability depend on how thin or thick it is.

Yes you are correct. I photographed one that was particularly bad and someone posted it on here last year. It was the T-IV block.

You must knock out the expansion plugs to see the core shift and casting seams on the cyls. Ususally the worst one is in the front of cyl. #1, and you can see that through the water pump hole, but you must check them all, front and back.

Also what I have found by sonic checking so many of these blocks is that the thinnest area of the cyls. is the lower third, front, at about 7:30. Most of them loose aprox. -.050 in this area @ cyls #3 &#4.
I have found ALL blocks are thicker in the thrust side (rear)

Also, Every block I have measured/inspected that had not yet been bored has the bore spacing too far apart between Cyl#2 & #3 by about .024 (A good machinist will fix this when they bore the block, but you only get one chance at it).

Blocks that spent their life near Winnepeg Manitoba are all rust pitted in the rear sorry Rob, I just couldnt resist.

If you look close at the cut-away pics in the Knowlege Center you can see the casting butt-crack in the front of the cyl. near the water pump opening. The engine in that photo is not even that bad, some are much worse. (thanks Rob Lloyd)

If a main brg bore is out of alignment it is usually #4 or #5.

All of the blocks I have inspected could handle maybe 400HP(for a while), so dont throw them away. I'm just posting what I have found to be common to the early Common blocks.

Send me a bunch of T-III and Masi blocks and I will check them too
.

[ShelGame]

Yes you are correct. I photographed one that was particularly bad and someone posted it on here last year. It was the T-IV block.

You must knock out the expansion plugs to see the core shift and casting seams on the cyls. Ususally the worst one is in the front of cyl. #1, and you can see that through the water pump hole, but you must check them all, front and back.

Also what I have found by sonic checking so many of these blocks is that the thinnest area of the cyls. is the lower third, front, at about 7:30. Most of them loose aprox. -.050 in this area @ cyls #3 .
I have found ALL blocks are thicker in the thrust side (rear)

Also, Every block I have measured/inspected that had not yet been bored has the bore spacing too far apart between Cyl#2 & #3 by about .024 (A good machinist will fix this when they bore the block, but you only get one chance at it).

Blocks that spent their life near Winnepeg Manitoba are all rust pitted in the rear sorry Rob, I just couldnt resist.

If you look close at the cut-away pics in the Knowlege Center you can see the casting butt-crack in the front of the cyl. near the water pump opening. The engine in that photo is not even that bad, some are much worse. (thanks Rob Lloyd)

If a main brg bore is out of alignment it is usually #4 or #5.

All of the blocks I have inspected could handle maybe 400HP(for a while), so dont throw them away. I'm just posting what I have found to be common to the early Common blocks.

Send me a bunch of T-III and Masi blocks and I will check them too
.

This should be added to the KC article in it's entirety...

[BadAssPerformance]

This should be added to the KC article in it's entirety...

+infinity, thanks for sharing Warren!

Is it possible to overcome the weaknesses like these with block fill?

[turbovanman²]

I have read alot about TIII blocks being the thickest-best, but I cannot find anyone who has personally sonic checked any. I suppose it is logical that they should have been made the strongest, but I wouldnt bet on it.

A TIII is working out GREAT for Brian, I guess that is probably what I should be searchin for.........Any leads?

I do have a TIII shortblock for sale,

[shackwrrr]

The seam is where mine cracked. On stock boost.

[OmniLuvr]

warren, do you have a pic of the block with the crack in cyl #1? was it in the "open" deck part of the block?

[cordes]

January 8th and we already have a front runner for thread of the year. I'm in on this one for sure. Thanks for the great info guys.

[135sohc]

Warren have you noticed any extra cast in 'webbing' on your later TBI blocks on the back inside wall ? If you pop the freeze plugs and feel inside there the wall isnt smooth on the inside, its not casting garbage but intentionally extra metal that was put there in a grid pattern. I have only seen it on Mexico cast blocks.