T3 is Apart, Now What to do?

[turbovanman²]

I hope parts are available too, but the T3 motor is a PITA and parts are getting more and more scarce. Plus, the parts are already prohibitively expensive. The Spirit makes 224hp, which isn't bad, but it's also not industry-leading anymore. It's hard to justify limping the engine along for another 20 years when there are better performing motors out there that don't require this kind of attention.

Many stereotypical TD'ers wouldn't even think of trying to maintain a T3. How many T3 cars get taken apart and then never get put back together? I really hate having spent ~$600 in parts for the engine this year, and then thinking about how I'll have to spend almost $1200 to put good shocks on the car next year. I've used KYB's and Monroe's, but neither of them were able to handle the spring rates when I tried them on my old Daytonas. Of course, Konis are out of production so I get to install coil-overs on the car if I don't want it to bounce down the highway when I have passengers in the car.

Certainly there will be a day when it makes sense to make the Spirit go away. I like the car, that's why I plan to drive it another ten years. At some point though, my wife will put me in the loony bin for limping this thing along. I have the most high-maintenance assortment of vehicles. Some day I'll need at least 1 "regular" car to drive around.

With all that said, I'm going to have to be careful about which car replaces the Spirit. A friend came over yesterday to replace the output shaft seal on his 2008 Impala and we noticed his year old rear tires had no tread on the inside edges. Why was the output shaft seal leaking on a 2008? Why is the car wearing the rear tires like crazy? I'd rather be replacing my head gasket or timing belt than trying to fix the rear suspension and replace tires that are less than a year old. I guess sometimes the grass is greener.

---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

Here's a good example of why some day I'll have to change daily drivers. Since the car was new, the following parts have been replaced in 90K miles:

Intermediate shaft
Lifters
Oil Pump
Timing Belt x3
Valve cover gaskets x2
Head Gasket
Radiator
Various A/C Parts
Idler pulleys
Serpentine Belts x2
Aluminum pipe plugs for the head
Shifter Bushings
Rear Shocks
Sway Bar Bushings
Strut Mounts
Headlight lenses (not yet replaced)

The wife's G35 has had the following parts replaced in 90K miles:

Wheel Bearing
Hood Hinge
Serpentine Belt
Brake Pads

One vehicle seems to be less of a headache than the other...

I like the comparison but your comparing apples to oranges, plus the R/T was never meant to be a plush, smooth car, lol.

As for you saying the TIII needs a lot of upkeep etc, I call BS. Sure they have some quirks but they are blown out of proportion. 3 timing belts in 90K, you should have done one, and at least if it goes, nothing gets bent. Apart from cracking heads-easy fix, lifters-easy fix and price out other cars-you'd go etc, and they are not that expensive to repair and keep going. Find a 3000lb car that can run 12's or 13's, get high 20 mpg some get 30+ with a car from today, damn near impossible unless you spend $30K or more or get a turbo diesel car.

[jckrieger]

I agree. It's sad that I can't think of a lot of cars that I'd want to replace the R/T with. I guess it shows how good the "design" of the car was back in 1991. We should come up with a list of cars that could replace the R/T without any substantial sacrifices in performance, economy, or "comfort", if you can call a Turbo-Dodge comfortable.

I'll start the list with:

Dodge Charger (V6 or V8) - My V6 Charger rental was one of the few cars I've driven where I didn't hate it. It also got close to 30 mpg and was RWD. I did hate how soft the car launched so I can't say I'd be happy with the performance without some modifications to the engine/transmission controls.

Infiniti G35/G37 - These cars are available in RWD or AWD, with a 6sp manual transmission, have reasonable weight (3300-3500 lbs), and have between 280-330 hp. They also aren't all beat to hell. Oh, and a 350Z with a good driver is REALLY hard to catch on an auto-x course.

Cadillac CTS-V - These cars have some suspension issues, but after some work I could live with the rest of the car. I think they depreciate rapidly as well.

BMW 3 series - These are expensive, and less reliable than my R/T. I like the concept, but I don't think I could own one of these.

Any other ideas?

That's the real killer IMO. In 90' Chrysler made a fleet of vehicles which are perfect for me. I don't know that anyone has done so since.

[jckrieger]

I agree it's somewhat an apples to oranges comparison, but they are both midsize "sport" sedans from their respective era's. The G35 nearly matches the performance of the R/T, while still being fairly reliable. I agree you can't make an G35 go nearly as fast on the same budget. I'd imagine my Spirit could run a solid high 13 in the 1/4 these days, while the G35 would be well into the 14's.

As far as timing belts go, I never actually failed a timing belt. I'm in the habit of replacing the timing belt any time I have a reason to remove the timing belt from the car. The first timing belt was replaced due to age as preventative maintenance, the second one was due to the intermediate shaft failure, and the third was replaced when I installed the new MLS head gasket. The second and third timing belts were carefully installed with the correct belt tension gauge. I agree that the intermediate shaft failure was likely accelerated by the fact the original timing belt was slightly over-tensioned. I rely on this car getting me places, so I need to replace things before they leave me stranded on the side of the road. I think the general rule for T3 timing belts should be every 10 years/40K miles. For about $18 it's money well spent. I remember back in the early 90's the T3 cars were already having timing belt issues. If they were a problem on new cars, I have no reason to believe the problem to be resolved on my car.

I agree it will cost at least $10K to replace the R/T with a "better" car with similar mileage. That's why the Spirit isn't going anywhere. At this point I think I've replaced most of the "problem" parts on the car so I do expect it to become more reliable and be less prone to random issues. I do plan to install the titanium valve retainers and new valve stem seals next spring. I'll also have to replace the front struts before too long. Some day the clutch will need to be replaced, but it should make it to 150K miles without any problem.

I like the comparison but your comparing apples to oranges, plus the R/T was never meant to be a plush, smooth car, lol.

As for you saying the TIII needs a lot of upkeep etc, I call BS. Sure they have some quirks but they are blown out of proportion. 3 timing belts in 90K, you should have done one, and at least if it goes, nothing gets bent. Apart from cracking heads-easy fix, lifters-easy fix and price out other cars-you'd go etc, and they are not that expensive to repair and keep going. Find a 3000lb car that can run 12's or 13's, get high 20 mpg some get 30+ with a car from today, damn near impossible unless you spend $30K or more or get a turbo diesel car.

[jckrieger]

Ok, I'm getting this thread somewhat back on track. Next weekend I will be installing a new timing belt tensioner and idler pulley from Cindy, along with a set of titanium valve spring retainers. I also plan to install the flashable SBEC from BoostButton.com along with +40% injectors and a 3 bar map. While I'm at it, the car will also likely get valve stem seals and a Walbro 255 fuel pump.

The problem with all of this work is I'm going to end up also needing a new clutch, a larger turbo, and a LOT of new tires!

[cordes]

That's a problem to have Clark.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Cadillac CTS-V - These cars have some suspension issues, but after some work I could live with the rest of the car. I think they depreciate rapidly as well.

Have you driven a CTS any resonable distance? Do before you decide to buy one. My mother-in-law has one. After 30 minutes in the car I want out because the seats are so uncomfortable. I had to drive it across Wa state November of 2011. I could barely get out of the car at the end of the drive.

My Omni, New Yorker and Daytona I can get in and drive across the country and hop right out at the end. I'm an average 6'0" 200lb'ish (depending on how much I try and stay in shape) guy.

[turbovanman²]

^^Sounds like a plan, but you might as well put a larger turbo on, you know you want to do it,

r "comfort", if you can call a Turbo-Dodge comfortable.

I think they are comfy, I have no issues driving for hours in the van.

[jckrieger]

Have you driven a CTS any resonable distance? Do before you decide to buy one. My mother-in-law has one. After 30 minutes in the car I want out because the seats are so uncomfortable. I had to drive it across Wa state November of 2011. I could barely get out of the car at the end of the drive.

My Omni, New Yorker and Daytona I can get in and drive across the country and hop right out at the end. I'm an average 6'0" 200lb'ish (depending on how much I try and stay in shape) guy.

That is really good feedback. Compared to the Viper or the G35, the Spirit isn't the most comfortable. However, it is still better than many newer cars I have been in lately. However, I would also be disappointed if I purchased a car primarily for the seats. Either way, the car is running great so it might be another 10 years before it gets replaced.

[GLHNSLHT2]

However, I would also be disappointed if I purchased a car primarily for the seats.

Well no the seats aren't everything about a car but since you have to sit in them to enjoy it they're pretty important. If you want out of the car after 30 minutes you aren't going to want to drive it much.

Case in point. A buddy had a brand new 98 Civic with a cold air intake and some suspension mods. It had great throttle response and I dialed in the alignment so it stuck like glue. It was faster than a stock 88 ShelbyZ through the twisties. But an hour down the freeway and you were clamoring to get out. I drove it from Spokane, Wa to SoCal straight through and it was horrible. It was so nice to drive the GLHT back home on that trip. Riding in comfort the whole way back.

[jckrieger]

It was so nice to drive the GLHT back home on that trip. Riding in comfort the whole way back.

I think you may be the only person to ever call a GLH comfortable! However, I do know where you are coming from. This is why the auto-x guys say you can't have a competitive car that is also a daily driver. One of the local guys had to have back surgery after driving his race prepped mustang to work on the bumpy roads. In comparison, my vehicles make the bumps apparent, but I'm not the slightest bit shaken up on the same roads.

All of that is why I like driving the GTS so much. The car has firm suspension, but it really absorbs the bumps well. It's the perfect balance of having a responsive suspension while still feeling like a grand touring car.

[ShelGame]

"jckrieger has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."

Need to reply to your PM...

[jckrieger]

Done! Inbox cleaned up!

"jckrieger has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."

Need to reply to your PM...

[jckrieger]

So tonight I installed the Boostbutton flashable SBEC and got the car running. I fought the flashable SBEC for almost 2 hours flashing various calibrations on it to no avail. On a whim, I used the "erase eeprom" feature on the stock calibration I had flashed to the SBEC. After erasing the eeprom, I turned the ignition on and the fuel pump primed! Previously, no matter what I did the fuel pump would not prime after flashing a calibration, whether it was a stock cal or a Turbonator variant.

Does anyone have any clue what happened? How did the car run after I "erased" the eeprom? Anyway, I flashed the Turbonator T3 2 bar cal on the ECU and will be driving it to work tomorrow. I setup switchable boost, the 2 step rev limiter, and the check engine light on knock features. I will provide some feedback on the 2 bar cal before I install the 3 bar map and +40's and run the Turbonator T3 3 bar calibration later in the week.

[ShelGame]

I sent you a PM alos, but the EEPROM is where the alarm buts are stored. If the ECU came from a car with a factory alarm, it won't run in another car until you clear the EEPROM. They also stored the emissions maint reminder mileage there, and some other bits for various things, mostly to do with the CCD bus it looks like.

Sorry, I usualy clear the EEPROM before I finish up a computer now. I must have forgot to do yours.

[jckrieger]

Rob,

Your feedback has been top notch. I highly recommend people buy this flashable setup from you, as you have a huge wealth of knowledge and an excellent product. I'm really glad I went this route over trying to build my own module and figure everything out myself. You knew exactly what was wrong once I gave you enough information to make sense out of what I was doing.

The Turbonator T3 cal works great, so I'll be continuing to tweak the calibration once I get additional instrumentation setup.

[ShelGame]

Rob,

Your feedback has been top notch. I highly recommend people buy this flashable setup from you, as you have a huge wealth of knowledge and an excellent product. I'm really glad I went this route over trying to build my own module and figure everything out myself. You knew exactly what was wrong once I gave you enough information to make sense out of what I was doing.

The Turbonator T3 cal works great, so I'll be continuing to tweak the calibration once I get additional instrumentation setup.

Thanks for the feedback, but honestly it's hould have been more plug-n-play - especially since I made everything for you. With the user-installed flash boards I expect a little learning curve, not with with a turn-key system. I'll try to improve the instructions.

[shellboy]

my r/t is down at the moment. so, i got a 1992 spirit 3.0 v6 for $170 that i drive daily. i got to fix my r/t soon, cause the 92 puts me to sleep! lol