Plymouth Horizon nominated for a "You Drive What" thread!

[ATaylorRacing]

So, a few years back the heat index was in the 110s at Indy...not having a a/c car at that time I decided a moddification to old Matchbox would be needed. I wish I had an invertor in it so that I could have drove the car through the pits and to the staging lanes like this, but the 110V window a/c unit worked perfectly IN the pits. I won the race and was reasonably comfortable. As you can see, the mid 17 second dial was when the old tall block 2.5 was used...now the car runs 1 second quicker with a common block 2.5 with NO other changes except being dejetted three times on the secondary jet. The old tb 2.5 had the bs removed while the cb still has them and is VERY smooth. At Milan it was back in the 17 flat range since I ran the big/heavy street tires on it instead of the 55 lb lighter set of 20.5x7x13 tires/rims.

How much longer will it be before this photo joins the "You drive what?" thread that gets emailed around? If you see it, email the link to me!

[BadAssPerformance]

Lol...

[4 l-bodies]

Hey Angelo,
Funny pic. Reminds me of the boom boxes people used to hold up tho their ears.
What's your theory on why the TD block was so much slower? Sounds like it was half second slower under normal conditions. Heavier block yes, but certainly better rod ratio. A longer rod motor should be happier at higher RPM but make a little less torque. Tired motor perhaps?
Todd

[ATaylorRacing]

Hey Angelo,
Funny pic. Reminds me of the boom boxes people used to hold up tho their ears.
What's your theory on why the TD block was so much slower? Sounds like it was half second slower under normal conditions. Heavier block yes, but certainly better rod ratio. A longer rod motor should be happier at higher RPM but make a little less torque. Tired motor perhaps?
Todd

I really don't know why the 87 tall block without the balance shafts was slower and used more gas than the 94 common block. The amount of miles might have been a reason since the 87 was given to me with 237,000 miles already on it. All those miles on original head, cam, VALVES, might be the reason. A compression check has never been run on the old motor. NOTHING else on the car was changed. I must also add here that the computer is only used to start the car. I found out years ago that running only base timing (no vacuum lines hooked up) made it a lot more consistant...and a bit slower, not a lot. The weird thing was the newer motors better mpg...23.0 best on the tb and 29.7 on the cb after dejetting the secondary side three times. The primary jet has been 404 (actually a secondary jet on the primary side every since a 2.5 was stuck in where the 2.2 was) and the secondary jet on the tb used to be a 423, rejetted to 417 after the cb was put in...then a 413 at the track on its first outing, then a 404 for the next race and everysince. As far as weight, every 27 lbs is a full tenth on Matchbox! Less power means a bigger difference that wt has on ets. All in all I would suspect the high miles on the stock head and extra wt of the motor. BUT...how much does the 2.5 tb with no balance shafts weigh compared to the cb with balance shafts?

Someone on the IndyCarz forum stated that it was "classic Angelo"....my wife compares me to Si on Duck Dynasty....a good comparison to classic Angelo!

---------- Post added at 08:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 AM ----------

In all seriousness though, I am tired of running mid 16s in the Matchbox and am dying (but too broke) to get it running in the 12s. Only 200 hp would put it right at the 13.0 range....and for only 250 hp it should run about 12.0! If we stuck in my SRT4 set up (12.17 at 119) and lets say it added 100 lbs....the 335 hp set up should let it run 11.0s!
Anybody have a swap they want to do for me? FWD Performance, Forward Motion, etc? Lifetime sponsorship? If my 2800 lb SRT4 gets 33 mpg at 55, I can't imagine what the 1945 lb Horizon would get with the same set up.

[ATaylorRacing]

Here is what I should have done...no regular plug in required!

[8valves]

Todd,

Clear out your PM's, I tried to send you one earlier. Thanks!

Nice creativity Angelo!

AM

[4 l-bodies]

Todd,

Clear out your PM's, I tried to send you one earlier. Thanks!

Nice creativity Angelo!

AM

Done. PM away (lol).

[INVUJerry]

Ever considered a DOHC 2.0 or 2.4 swap with a 3.94 neon transmission? A DOHC 2.0 with a few bolt ons will make 140WHP pretty easy, that is enough to put a almost stock weight neon into the mid 14's.

[ATaylorRacing]

I thought about that, but going turbo might only cost a little more. My wrench says he can put a small stock turbo on my stock 2.5 and set it about 5 psi to get some extra ponies, and keep the carb as a suck through set up...no electronics.

The 95 SOHC neon I drag has about 119 hp at the tires....putting that high mpg (46 mpg at 55 mph) should put Matchbox in the 15.4s.
I am kind of looking for the Magnum or R/T SOHC set up to put on my 95 neon. Those heads have R/T on the side and have better stock intakes and headers to put those 2.0s at the same 150 hp rating as the DOHC cars. From the ets that some of the ACR and Magnum Neons have had with no mods it looks like the 150 hp motors have about 140 at the tires. If Matchbox had 140 hp at the tires it should run 14.5s easy. My heavier 95 Neon with that set up should run 15.5s compared to the slow 16.4s now....slow because I only launch at 3700 and shift at 5500 trying to keep it consistant and not break stuff.


I can PROMISE you that if I ran a low 12 or high 11 second car I would make a ton more money and win even more! As an aside here, the Pit Pull (12.17 at 119 mph 05 SRT4) is about 4 tenths on pass to pass compared to the .04 with the 95 Neon and .01 with the Matchbox on a windless day. The N2MB launch box changed the inconsistant 95 Neon into being VERY consistant...I have one laying right here next to me that is going to be put on the Pit....launching at the same rpm should cure the either bog or spin the heck out of the tire launches...I hope. If I could get it to within .10 it will be a decent car for me...just hoping for no breakage though. BTW, if I took the 335 hp set up from the Pit Bull and stuck it in the over 1000 lb lighter Matchbox the old horizon should run 10.9s! All it takes is $$$$.

[INVUJerry]

A turbo on that setup with the carb would probably be lots of fun, is it a street car at all or just a drag car? At that point I'm sure you wouldn't have to worry about part throttle driving.

I'm pretty familiar with the magnum motors, my old 98 neon was pretty consistant at 14.6@93 with the magnum head, modified magnum intake, and a huge crane cam using a crane ignition box for the launch control. 65 shot of nitrous turned on in 2nd gear on through 4th was very consistent at 14.0X as long as I turned the button on at the same time. On slicks and turning the juice on 10 feet out made it go 13.5, but I didn't have a helmet so it finished my day. My 95 is an ACR, so it came with a 3.94 final drive, and I deleted the ac and ps. With a short tube header and an iceman intake it was consistent at 15.7's launching at 3500-4000 and shifting out of first as high as I could WOT shifting and 2nd 3rd and 4th around 6100, couldn't get it to go any faster. The motor was stock down to the 49MM throttle body, cam, and ECU. Gas mileage was somewhere around 35MPG daily, but mighty warm in the summer.

SRT's I've usually had trouble getting to run the same time. Mine was stock with a catback exhaust and an intake, spiking 14psi falling to 10 by redline it went 13.8@102, max trap was 103 on one pass. My friend had a stage 2 setup at 22PSI and got it pretty consistent with the N2MB box, but never got the WOT shifting quite right, so it woul bog pretty bad on shifts. It went 12.6's until he did a real hard burnout and got a 1.79 60', but ripped the shift knob off going into 3rd gear, boogering the whole thing, but he was about .05 faster at the 330', pretty sure that would have been his 12.4 run. He never broke axles after he went to 24.5x8.5x15 slicks though, and solid torque arm mounts. If he had filled the side motor mount and trans mount with urethane I'm sure it would have been even better.

I currently have a R/T head but it has a few bent valves, got it in a trade, might be looking to sell it if you're interested. I have two stock magnum cams, selling one to vigo, thinking about letting the other one go. Def want to keep the extra magnum intake I have though. These parts can be found pretty easy on neons.org and 2gn.org if you're wanting to take a look, or PM me if you're interested.

Sorry for the thread jack! I didn't make a single pass in 2012, and I'm getting anxious! Hope to be in the mid-low 14's with my 95 neon by the end of summer with the help of some nitrous. How well did your 20x7.5 slicks hook up under power?

[ATaylorRacing]

I am thinking that I might go with a 350 cfm Holley 4 barrel instead of the 32/36 Weber downdraft that is now used on Matchbox. The current set up on MB is a bone stock 94 2.5, so stock that if I shift higher than 4750 it slows down in the 1/4. Antoher thing is that the car only runs base timing! I got tired of having the computer diaphram starting to leak and having variable timing at a import pts race, killing the consistancy.

My SRT4 when bone stock ran 13.80-13.81 three times in a row on junk street tires, all at 101 mph. The stage 2 set up with BFMIC and stage 3 turbo (no toys) is being shifted at only 5300 from 1-2 and 5500 after that since it will be too lean if I shift higher. A DSP would put it into the 11s EASY!

My 98 SOHC Neon ran 14.8s when running the heck out of it and a 125 hp shot of NOS got it to run 12.20s. This is the car that I used to win my biggest race ever, the Car and Driver Magazine 50th Anniversary Drag Race....limited to 500 entries! I used NOS at the hit of the throttle and when using it I had to launch in 2nd gear since the 20" M/Ts and excess power would melt them in 1st gear. One photo is of Micromachine...and the other of Csabe giving me the prize.

Another member on this forum had offered me the whole R/T set up, head, intake, and exhaust (also with bent valves) for $400, but I am broke right now. If I am correct the 95 SOHC Neon would have even more hp since my block would have a bit more compression???? I think the whole top end of a SRT4 motor would be killer too.

The last two photos are my 95 Cheap Skate, winner of the 2010 Stick Shift Nationals & my SRT4 giving a half second head start to a wheelie popping Mustang.

[INVUJerry]

Wow that's awesome! Although it's slower, I understand wanting to have a very consistent car for money making. Ever thought about going to a megasquirt for spark control? You could even get away with just using a MS1 unit. What did the neon have to get to 14.8s? I had a pair of 20x6x14 tires a few years ago, but ended up selling them when I went to using drag radials, never got to use them with a setup that made any power but they worked well with my long geared transmission. Always wanted to try them again. Saw you were using hoosier 20x7.5x13's somewhere, how well are they working? Art Leong was talking about using them in his SS/GS car, but I haven't followed him about it lately.

The 95 sohc has the same compression as all the sohc motors from 95-02, the only difference being the PCV system. A DOHC block would raise the compression about half a point (what I plan on doing with my car this time). The R/T exhaust manifold was made by borla and it's a nice piece, but I would go to a long tube over it if you can. The intake is a nice piece, but it is really heavy, and you have to wire in a window switch for it to work. $400 shipped or locally picked up would be a good deal for the whole shebang, but any more I would probably pass. The prices on all the magnum parts are coming down as of lately. I sold my last magnum intake and exhaust manifold paired up for $250, and I drove an hour to sell it.

[ATaylorRacing]

I can't see spending money on an ignition system (megasquirt) when the stock electronics work VERY well.
The 14.8 on motor came about by launching at about 5000, shifting at about 7000, Mopar Performance Computor, 14 degrees of timing, 93 octane, rear air shocks pumped up to max, Indy Cylinder Head intake, 60 mm TB, no EGR, underdrive pulley set up, home made CAI, stock size exhaust pipe but with gutted stock cat in place (to appear stock), shorty headers, Borla XR1 muffler, resistor in downstream 02 sensor to not have a CEL on, Enkei R1 light wt rims, total wt reduction to make the total wt 2225 lbs....but with a/c still in place. I always ran the stock clutch (luck I guess) and only exploded one transmission when the diff pin slipped out then hit and shattered the cassed...on a drive to Chicago at 70 mph. The axles were stock and no problems there either. The M/T were 20x8x14.

The 20.5x7x13s are Hoosier road racing slicks. I was given 6 pair of tires by Jeff Gordon back in the day that he was not a big deal yet. They came off the front of his midget and were going to be thrown into the pile of tires that are used to line the guard rails on the road course. The 4 Goodyear 20x6x13 have long since died, as did one pair of the Hoosiers. The current Hoosiers (used on the 94 hp Matchbox) were bought two years ago. When I drove the car up to SDAC22 and also won the Import Face Off race at National Trail in September I had used the much larger/heavier DOT M/T 215x70x14. I had severe back pain just before SDAC and used these so I did not have to change tires and at the Import Face Off since with all the fwd cars there I know from experience that the starting line would get big bald spots on it so these would NOT spin in these cases. The DOTs, even though they are mounted on the same brand rim but 14" instead of 13" are a whopping 55 lbs for the pair heavier than the tiny slicks! The extra mass and diameter slows the car down from 16.3s-16.4s with passes at .02 difference (if windless) to 17.0-17.1 with nearly .10 differences in passes.

As far as the magnum set up in my 95...I might just get a whole low mileage motor since the nearly 200,000 mile motor I have now is starting to have wrist pin noise, but BARELY noticeable. I did not know about the compression being the same....thanks for that tidbit.

I am not a mechanic....so what is a window switch that is needed to make the intake to work. I do know that the 95 does NOT have the OBDII set up and I think THAT is the reason that my 95 is so much more consistant than the 98 was. As far as how I ran the 98, normally I ran it the same as the 95 on launch and shift points....I don't know how fast the 95 would go if launched at 5000, but I do know that it slows down if shifted past 5750. I have been putting off getting the MP Computer since I am too cheap to buy premium gas for this car. Might get a header down the road.


One last thing about the 95. I have a dump at the side so I can open it and HEAR my motor when I race against all those REAL race cars....when opened the car sounds VERY wicked, but that also slows it down a full tenth!

[INVUJerry]

Yeah they act funny after you open the exhaust up sometimes. If you're trying to find a mopar computer now you might be out if luck, since mopar stopped selling them. You can find them used but they are going for a mint now, but shelgamerob is coming close to being able to crack them and tune them.

All a window switch does is activate something at a certain RPM to another rpm, as "in the window". The magnum intake has actuators that open from 4900 to redline. A window switch will get turned on at 4900 and keep them open until you shift.

My 95 has been making bottom end noise, that's why it's been parked and I picked up my reliant.

Sorry to hesr about your back, but thTs a similar reason why i ran radials on my 98. Got tired of brining a few sets of wheels and tores to the track along with a jack and having to find somewhere for them. How well do you think the 20x7.5 tires will work under a good bit of power?? Thinking 120-135Hp at launch and a 65 shot after launch.

[ATaylorRacing]

For many years old Matchbox had a Borla XR1 muffler with stock header, no cat, and another muffler at the back. I would open a dump before the second muffler when I raced it. For SDAC I had the exhaust redone, got rid of the Borla and went to a side exit exhaust that got rid of 35 lbs...with a insert of baffles in the side exit to quiet it down for street driving. At the first pass with the new no muffler set up...as soon as I hit 3rd gear it was like I set a cruise control at 70. The car would not pick up any mph after the 1/8th mile. I stuck the baffled insert back in it, drove it to Milan to get more gas and see what I can find out with various passes afterwards. The next pass I left the baffles in place and the car ran 8 more mph with the insert in place. That motor likes some back pressure. When I got back to Indy I had the Borla stuck back in place, but still left the side exit and the 30 lb less wt instead of 35 lbs.

I did not know about the actuators.

Physical therapy took care of the back problems so I started changing tires again, but a lot more carefully!

I do NOT think the tiny 20 inch road racing slicks would work very well at all with any hp. They work great for 94 hp, but only on an excellent track.