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Thread: oil consumption

  1. #1
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor turbo84voyager's Avatar
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    oil consumption

    My 89 turbo mini is using oil. It is going through somewhere aroung a qt every 800 miles. The motor has about 15K on it. ( 2.5, wiseco's ported swirl, turbonetics turbo). I was busy at the time when I was building the engine and had the machine shop assemble the bottom end. I think the pistons are on the loose side because they are a little noisy when cold but quiet up when warm. It leaks a little oil, but not nearly enough that I can see to equal this amount. If I ever see a drop on the ground its about a dime size. It does not smoke as far as I know. I can actuially smell it with the window open when I get on it and am in boost atleast 7 psi and higher. I dont know of any exhaust leaks and the exhaust is out the back so it is strange that I can smell it. I cannot smell anything normal driving or when it is sitting idle with the hood open. My wife followed me yesturday and she said she did not see any smoke but a few times when I got on it she believe she smelled something burning. The PCV valve is oily. I am wondering if it is sucking oil in through the intake. Oil consumption did not seem to change between 10-30 mobil 1 which is all I ran in it ( except break in) until the last oil change which was 15-40 rotella. Anyone have to modify the PCV system and or add a catch can? I have smal filter for the breather since there is no airbox. One note to make is when I do change the oil I do get some "fuzz" on the magnetic drain plug. I have had this from day one. It is not a lot but a little more than what I would consider average. Atleast what I used to see on other cars with them. Any info would be appreciated.
    Thanks!

    Justin
    Justin
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    89 Dodge Caravan ES 2.4 SRT-4 Intercooled Turbo (46 trim, OS Valves, CP Pistons, Eagle Rods, NPR IC) Built 31th trans
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  2. #2
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: oil consumption

    Sounds like time to do a leak-down test... You can smell it because of the vent/breather and blow-by.

    The rings may not have seated properly, which is the point of the test, to see how much leakage there is and where it is going. If you hear/see it coming out the breather the rings aren't good (assuming an unacceptable % of leakage).

    The PCV may be a cause, especially if the "baffle" inside the VC isn't sealed properly, even then those don't do a great job of separating oil from "air".

    Also, just because you don't see a puddle under the car, it doesn't mean there isn't a leak that "comes on" when you're driving. Is there any oil residue under the car? If so, clean up the engine so you can trace the leak, which can be a bit tough as the oil tends to be blown all over the place, but it will give you a fighting chance on finding the source.

    Since the pistons quite down when warm, I expect they are fine, forged pistons need more clearance than a cast piston, because the expand more.

    The fuzz on the drain plug is concerning, especially since it is not "normal", and magnetic particles had to come from somewhere... I assume the engine was properly cleaned after the machine work was done, so it shouldn't be left overs from those operations (no guarantee there though). So that leaves rings as the most likely source (bearing material isn't magnetic), or something running with interference, shaving bits off the block, etc.

    If you could run a catch can between the PCV and the vacuum source, it should show you how much is being pulled through it, and that might be it all together.

    Sorry you're having some trouble, it's disheartening when a new engine has trouble, after all the work and $$ put into it.

    Hope it's something simple...

    Mike
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  3. #3
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    Re: oil consumption

    What do the plugs look like? Use a light and peak thru the plug holes-if you can see 12 and 6 oclock clean and shiny, oil rings are done, if the whole piston is black, its valve seals or the turbo.

    Noisy pistons cold is normal as Zin said.

    Leakdown will not pinpoint oil burning issues, you can have shitty compression but the oil rings still work, like in my case,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

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  4. #4
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor turbo84voyager's Avatar
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    Re: oil consumption

    I looked at the back of the engine this evening and it is leaking oil from somewhere up top. The header appears to be oily on the flange between the ports. It is probabily burning off everywhere else and is why it is not leaving much of a spot where I park it. The bottom of the intake has some oil on it near the intake bolts. There is some oily resudue on the lower firewall near the downpipe. I will need to look at it better to see where it is comming. It is oily below the PCV valve and the old factory rubber piece that connects the PCV valve to the valve cover and breather looks to have a crack in it. When I got home from work today with it running I took off the oil cap. No visable blow-by. Even when reving the engine. I am thinking the small amounts of fuzz are from the cylinder walls. The last time I had the head off there is definately more cylinder wall wear than with stock cast pistons. I am not sure if this has to do with them being a little loose or if the molly rings are that much harder. I looked into the cylinders a few weeks ago and the pistons for the most part look shiny. I will take a look at the cylinder walls to see if I can see if they are shiny in spots. The plugs look normal. beidge / gray ceramic with a little carbon around the base below the threads.
    Justin
    84 Plymouth Voyager LE 2.5 Intercooled Turbo 5-spd - Only 84 Turbo Van!
    89 Dodge Caravan ES 2.4 SRT-4 Intercooled Turbo (46 trim, OS Valves, CP Pistons, Eagle Rods, NPR IC) Built 31th trans
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  5. #5
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    Re: oil consumption

    It could all be coming from the cracked pcv elbow. I think Mike is right about the smell: its probably coming from your breather filter flowing out due to blow by.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  6. #6
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    Re: oil consumption

    This is as per Chrysler on oil consumption. They say 1quart of oil per 1000 miles with under 50k miles. 1quart per 750 with over 50k miles.

    Symptom/Vehicle Issue: Oil Consumption Test and Diagnosis
    Discussion:
    The following diagnostic procedures are used to determine the source of excessive internal oil
    consumption .These procedures and tests apply to vehicles with 50,000 miles or less. (Excluding SRT,Viper and Diesel
    powered vehicles)
    NOTE: Engine oil consumption may be greater than normal during engine break-in
    Repairs should be delayed until vehicle has been driven at least 7,500 miles.
    Severe service (high ambient temperature, short trips, heavy loading, trailer towing , taxi, off-road, or law
    enforcement use) may result in greater oil consumption than normal .
    Sustained high speed driving and high engine RPM operation may result in increased oil consumption
    Failure to comply with the recommended oil type and viscosity rating, as outlined in the owners manual, may
    impact oil economy as well as fuel economy.
    Oil consumption may increase with vehicle age and mileage due to normal engine wear
    1. Oil leakage is not the same as oil consumption and all external leakage must be eliminated before any action can be
    taken to verify and/or correct oil consumption complaints.
    NOTE : Because a few drops of external oil leakage per mile can quickly account for the loss one quart of oil in a
    few hundred miles it should be definitely assured that no external engine oil leaks are present

    2. Verify that the engine has the correct oil level dipstick and dipstick tube
    3. Verify that the engine is not being run in an overfilled condition. Check the oil level at
    least 15 minutes after a hot shutdown with the vehicle parked on a level surface. In
    no case should the level be above MAX or the FULL. mark on the dipstick
    4. Perform oil consumption test:
    a. Check the oil level at least 15 minutes after a hot shutdown
    b If oil level is low, top off with proper viscosity and API service level engine oil. Add one bottle of engine oil florescent
    dye.
    c. Tamper proof oil pan drain plug, oil filter, dipstick and oil fill cap
    d. Record the vehicle mileage.
    STAR Case
    Contact the STAR Center for assistance if no solution is found
    Chrysler Group LLC Version 1
    e. Instruct the customer to drive the vehicle as usual
    d. Ask customer to return to the servicing dealer after accumulating 500 miles, Check the oil level at least 15 minutes
    after a hot shutdown. If oil level is half way between the “FULL” and “ADD” mark continue with oil consumption
    diagnosis
    5. Oil consumption Diagnosis
    6. Check the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) system. Make sure the system is not
    restricted and pcv valve has correct part number and correct vacuum source (18-20 in. Hg at idle below 3000ft above sea
    level is considered normal)
    7. Perform a cylinder compression test and cylinder leak down test, using standard leak down gauge following
    manufacturers suggested best practices. NOTE: Verify the spark plugs are not oil saturated. If the spark plugs are oil
    saturated and compression is good it can be assumed the valve seals or valve guides are at fault.
    8. If one or more cylinders have more than 15% leak down further engine tear down and inspection will be required.
    Top 19 reasons that may lead to engine oil consumption
    1.Tapered and Out-of-Round Cylinders
    The increased piston clearances permit the pistons to rock in the worn cylinders. While tilted momentarily, an abnormally
    large volume of oil is permitted to enter on one side of the piston. The rings, also tilted in the cylinder, permit oil to enter
    on one side. Upon reversal of the piston on each stroke, some of this oil is passed into the combustion chamber.
    2.Distorted Cylinders
    Which may be caused by unequal heat distribution or unequal tightening of cylinder head bolts. This condition presents a
    surface which the rings may not be able to follow completely. In this case, there may be areas where the rings will not
    remove all of the excess oil. When combustion takes place, this oil will be burned and cause high oil consumption.
    3.Improper operation of “PCV “system.
    The main purpose of the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) valve is to recirculate blow-by gases back from the
    crankcase area through the engine to consume unburned hydrocarbons. The PCV system usually has a one way check
    valve, and a make up air source. The system uses rubber hoses that route crankcase blow by gases to the intake
    manifold. Vacuum within the engine intake manifold pulls blow by gases out of the crankcase into the combustion
    chamber along with the regular intake of air and fuel.
    The PCV system can become clogged with sludge and varnish deposits and trap blow by gases in the crankcase. This
    degrades the oil, promoting additional formation of deposit material. If left uncorrected, the result is plugged oil rings, oil
    consumption, rapid ring wear due to sludge buildup, ruptured gaskets and seals due to crankcase pressurization.
    4.Worn Piston Ring Grooves
    For piston rings to form a good seal, the sides of the ring grooves must be true and flat – not flared or shouldered. Piston
    rings in tapered or irregular grooves will not seal properly and, consequently, oil will pass around behind the rings into the
    combustion chamber
    STAR Case
    Contact the STAR Center for assistance if no solution is found
    Chrysler Group LLC Version 1
    5.Worn, Broken or Stuck Piston rings
    When piston rings are broken ,worn or stuck to such an extent that the correct tension and clearances are not
    maintained, this will allow oil to be drawn into the combustion chamber on the intake stroke and hot gases of combustion
    to be blown down the cylinder past the piston on the power stroke. all of these conditions will result in burning and
    carboning of the oil on the cylinders, pistons and rings.
    Broken rings are especially damaging, their loose pieces with jagged ends are likely to cut into the sides of the piston
    grooves. This causes land breakage which results in the complete destruction of the piston assembly and promotes
    cylinder wall damage. A stuck piston ring will allow the piston to contact the cylinder wall resulting in severe damage
    6.Cracked or Broken Ring Lands
    Cracked or broken ring lands prevent the rings from seating completely on their sides and cause oil pumping. This
    condition will lead to serious damage to the cylinders as well as complete destruction of the pistons and rings. Cracked or
    broken ring lands cannot be corrected by any means other than piston replacement .
    7.Worn Valve Stems and Guides
    When wear has taken place on valve stems and valve guides, the vacuum in the intake manifold will draw oil and oil vapor
    between the intake valve stems and guides, into the intake manifold and then into the cylinder where it will be burned.
    8.Bent or Misaligned Connecting Rods
    Bent or misaligned connecting rods will not allow the pistons to ride straight in the cylinders. This will prevent the pistons
    and rings from forming a proper seal with the cylinder walls and promote oil consumption. In addition to this, it is possible
    that a bearing in a bent rod will not have uniform clearance on the crankpin. Under these conditions, the bearing will wear
    rapidly and throw off an excessive amount of oil into the cylinder.
    9.Fuel Dilution
    If raw fuel is allowed to enter the lubrication system, the oil will become thinner and more volatile. Both will result in higher
    oil consumption. Excess fuel can enter and mix with the oil via a leaking fuel injector and or gasoline contaminated with
    diesel fuel, restricted air intake and through excessive idling.
    10.Contaminated Cooling Systems
    Corrosion, rust, scale, sediment or other formations in the water jacket and radiator will prevent a cooling system from
    extracting heat efficiently. This is likely to cause cylinder distortion
    11.Oil Viscosity
    The use of oil with a viscosity that is too light may result in high oil consumption. Refer to the vehicle owner’s manual for
    the proper oil viscosity to be used under specific driving conditions or ambient temperatures.
    12.Dirty Engine Oil
    Failure to change the oil and filter at proper intervals may cause the oil to be so dirty that it will promote accumulation of
    the sludge and varnish and restrict oil passages in the piston rings and pistons. This will increase oil consumption as a
    rule dirty oil by nature is also consumed at a higher rate than cleaner oil.
    STAR Case
    Contact the STAR Center for assistance if no solution is found
    Chrysler Group LLC Version 1
    13.Crankcase overfull
    Due to an error in inserting the oil dip stick so that it does not come to a seat on its shoulder, a low reading may be
    obtained. Additional oil may be added to make the reading appear normal with the stick in this incorrect position which
    will actually make the oil level too high. If the oil level is so high that the lower ends of the connecting rods touch the oil in
    the oil pan excessive quantities of oil will be thrown on the cylinder walls and some of it will work its way up into the
    combustion chamber
    14.Excessively High Oil Pressure
    A faulty oil pressure relief valve may cause the oil pressure to be too high. The result will be that the engine will be
    flooded with an abnormally large amount of oil in a manner similar to that which occurs with worn bearings. This condition
    may also cause the oil filter to burst.
    15.Aftermarket Performance Chips and Modification
    Increasing performance through the use of performance/power enhancement products to a stock or factory engine will
    increase the chance of excessive oil consumption.
    16.Lugging Engine
    Lugging is running the engine at a lower RPM in a condition where a higher RPM (more power/torque) should be
    implemented. Especially susceptible on vehicles equipped with a manual transmission. This driving habit causes more
    stress loading on the piston and can lead to increases in engine oil consumption.
    17.Turbocharged Engines
    Due to higher crankcase pressure (as compared to naturally aspirated engines) which is normal for turbocharged engines
    . There is a possibility for PCV “push–over”
    This condition causes varying amounts of engine oil to enter the intake manifold ,charge air cooler and associated
    plumbing to and from the charge air cooler , also a leaking turbocharger seal will draw oil into the combustion chamber
    where it will burn ( blue smoke from tail pipe may be present ) and form carbon deposits which contribute to further oil
    consumption as they interfere with proper engine function

    18.Restricted Air Intake
    Excessive restriction in the air intake system will increase engine vacuum and can increase oil consumption, an extremely
    dirty air filter would be one example of this situation.
    19. Intake Manifold port seals
    Engines that have a “V” configuration and a “wet valley “ (3.3/3.8L) could draw oil into the intake ports due to improper
    sealing between the intake manifold ports and cylinder head . Causes may include improper torque of intake manifold
    bolts, corrosion (aluminum intake manifold )and or warped sealing surface

  7. #7
    turbo addict
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    Re: oil consumption

    Great copy and paste post!!!

  8. #8
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    Re: oil consumption

    I do what I can

  9. #9
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    Re: oil consumption

    I'd highlight #3 also, PCV can snort up a lot of oil as droplet suspension when it's misbehaving..

    I'd wipe the leading edge of the fuel tank, and check yer back hatch for oil smearing if you wipe it with a dry cloth... you're collecting oil there, you're leaking more than you thought.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  10. #10
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanman˛'s Avatar
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    Re: oil consumption

    1 quart per 1000 miles is too much, that's a generic statement from all OE's to avoid excessive labour costs.

    Post pics of the plugs. If the pistons are shiny the way I am thinking, its bad oil rings.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  11. #11
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor turbo84voyager's Avatar
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    Re: oil consumption

    Thanks for the info! I will get some pictures of the plugs. They look normal. My bad about the pistons, what I meant is that they are not loaded with carbon. I looked at them and they have a light golden color to them. In the mean time I am going to come up with something else for the breather setup and eliminate the old rubber PCV - T on the back of the valve cover. It appears a lot of the oil is leaking from this corner. Since I am building a 2.4 for this, I am not going to pull it apart if it is the rings, Ill run it until the engine is ready to go in. One thing that makes me think it is not rings is if I smell the exhaust when it is idiling, there is no oil smell at all to it and a heavier weight oil did not make any difference.
    Justin
    84 Plymouth Voyager LE 2.5 Intercooled Turbo 5-spd - Only 84 Turbo Van!
    89 Dodge Caravan ES 2.4 SRT-4 Intercooled Turbo (46 trim, OS Valves, CP Pistons, Eagle Rods, NPR IC) Built 31th trans
    91 Dodge Shadow Convertible 2.5 Intercooled Turbo A555 5-spd
    01 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP - 3.8 supercharged! Only 5K miles....
    01 Subaru Forester - Daily Driver
    07 Yamaha FJR 1300 140+ HP on 2 wheels
    85 Honda Nighthawk 450
    94 Bobcat 763 Skidloader 2.2 Kubota Diesel
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  12. #12
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: oil consumption

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Leakdown will not pinpoint oil burning issues, you can have shitty compression but the oil rings still work, like in my case,
    Sorry I wasn't clear, the leak-down will show you where the leaks are, and if the rings are shot, the blow-by would be heavy, leading to high oil consumption via the PCV.

    Mike
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

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  13. #13
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    Re: oil consumption

    Quote Originally Posted by zin View Post
    Sorry I wasn't clear, the leak-down will show you where the leaks are, and if the rings are shot, the blow-by would be heavy, leading to high oil consumption via the PCV.

    Mike
    Much better, lol.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  14. #14

    Re: oil consumption

    My oil usage with weisco is higher, I should have paid better attention to the hone done by machine shop, I honed my daily driver with the hone that sends everyone into fits about but made sure the hatch was correct , no bore job, stock pistons which I dug the carbon out of and threw on new stock rings, zero oil usage....this isnt the first post dealing with weisco rings.....if the cylinder finish is wrong forget it. Sure your turbo isnt weeping some oil in exhaust, Im running the same setup and the turbo is letting oil by, doesnt even have 8000 miles on it yet....probelm with letting shop assemble is you have to assume they di it right....

  15. #15
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    I think #15 is the biggest issue here.
    Bryan
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  16. #16
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    Re: oil consumption

    Oh, check the sender, they like to spray when pressure gets up... they sometimes won't at idle, but get up around 3000 RPM and they start hosing... often they'll manage to do it in a direction away from the motor, so you never see telltales near them. I had a run of crappy senders on the Escort a while back.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  17. #17
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    Re: oil consumption

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadWarrior222 View Post
    Oh, check the sender, they like to spray when pressure gets up... they sometimes won't at idle, but get up around 3000 RPM and they start hosing... often they'll manage to do it in a direction away from the motor, so you never see telltales near them. I had a run of crappy senders on the Escort a while back.
    My neons sender leaked pretty good. New mopar sender for 20 dollars and it's bone dry.

  18. #18
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    Re: oil consumption

    Quote Originally Posted by black86glhs View Post
    I think #15 is the biggest issue here.
    I don't agree, with new rings, I could go over 2K without adding oil, until I melted things,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  19. #19
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    Your argument invalid. #15 is the root cause to all our TM troubles.

















    Lol!
    Bryan
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    A man has got to know his limitations.....

  20. #20
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanman˛'s Avatar
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    Re: oil consumption

    Quote Originally Posted by black86glhs View Post
    Your argument invalid. #15 is the root cause to all our TM troubles.

















    Lol!
    You got me there, lol.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

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