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Thread: 3 speed auto Trans mods all in one place

  1. #121
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: 3 speed auto Trans mods all in one place

    Quote Originally Posted by wallace View Post
    I'd need to re-read the ATSG manual but if you are swapping input shafts to match the converter you also need to swap in the correct pump assembly..there may be another piece you're supposed to swap with it.
    That's why I posted the question:

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    All I need to convert to a LU is the valve body with solenoid (I got the whole valve body because I didn't know what valves and springs are needed), the input shaft, drill the case for the solenoid, and the LU converter. Correct? I just want to double check before I start putting this thing together.
    I'm building an A413 from a non-Lock-Up to a Lock-Up for the first time. I've never done this before. I've only built a non-LU and stayed non-LU or a LU and stayed LU. I'm trying to hear from someone who's done the conversion, not just speculation.

  2. #122
    turbo addict
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    Re: 3 speed auto Trans mods all in one place

    ok, I got out the ATSG manual and it is still a little confusing to me but here goes. There are 3 different pump assemblies, 1978-85, 1986-99, 1999-present. There are 3 different Forward clutch housings, 1978-85, 1986 only, and 1987-present. There are 3 different input shafts but they don't break them down. The input shaft you need should have 3 small sealing rings on it the third added ring is for the lockup function. The pump was changed in 99 to a gerotor design and looks to be superior to the previous offerings. The 99 and later pump, input shaft, and clutch are a dime a dozen in the wrecking yards. I would source all of those components from the same transmission and take the converter to use as a core for when you have the new one built. The manual states that the 99' and later assembly is backwards compatible. Hope that helps.

  3. #123
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: 3 speed auto Trans mods all in one place

    Quote Originally Posted by wallace View Post
    ok, I got out the ATSG manual and it is still a little confusing to me but here goes. There are 3 different pump assemblies, 1978-85, 1986-99, 1999-present. There are 3 different Forward clutch housings, 1978-85, 1986 only, and 1987-present. There are 3 different input shafts but they don't break them down. The input shaft you need should have 3 small sealing rings on it the third added ring is for the lockup function. The pump was changed in 99 to a gerotor design and looks to be superior to the previous offerings. The 99 and later pump, input shaft, and clutch are a dime a dozen in the wrecking yards. I would source all of those components from the same transmission and take the converter to use as a core for when you have the new one built. The manual states that the 99' and later assembly is backwards compatible. Hope that helps.
    I'm not going to the junk yard to source these parts. I got them delivered: used LU input shaft, used LU valve body, and new LU converter. That's why I'm asking if there is anything else I need to make this conversion because I'm starting with a non-LU transmission and am ordering the parts I need, not going to the junk yard grabbing/comparing what I need.

  4. #124
    turbo addict
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    Re: 3 speed auto Trans mods all in one place

    Yes, you will need the matching pump and forward clutch housing for your input shaft. Added the attachment not sure if it will be big enough to read though.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ATSG A413 pump info.jpg 
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    Last edited by wallace; 08-21-2013 at 07:47 AM.

  5. #125
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: 3 speed auto Trans mods all in one place

    I converted my first non-lock-up A413 to a lock-up. Since I still wasn't sure from my last post and had to convert my Dad's wagon (3200 RPMs at 70 mph) I successfully did it. You need a LU input shaft, LU solenoid and electrical plug, one spring for the valve body (it's better to grab a LU valve body), LU converter, and drill a hole in the case. The pumps are the same and the valve bodies are the same except for the LU solenoid and one spring.

    When drilling the case, you want to use cutting oil otherwise you'll tear up the aluminum. I drilled the case with all the guts still inside. It was tricky to keep the aluminum chips out of the trans but I did it. I had it bolted to an engine stand so I could rotate the trans at the right angle so the chips wouldn't fall into the trans.

    Right now I have the solenoid hooked up to a switch. Eventually I'll have it hooked up so the computer will turn it on like in my van. It took me 7 1/2 hours to pull the trans, modify it, put it back in, and wire it up (switch only).

    You can see the spring that needs to be added to a non-LU valve body to make it lock up. Top picture is LU and lower is non-LU.



  6. #126
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: 3 speed auto Trans mods all in one place

    Nice! I always wondered the extent of the differences to the valve body. Looks like not much!

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  7. #127
    Garrett booster
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    Re: 3 speed auto Trans mods all in one place

    I wanted to add some new info for everyone. This is regarding whats called full time lube modification.

    The pump/pressure regulator valve and converter charge/lube oil follow in sequence and are literally connected in series. A change in any one of these areas has a direct consequence in others. At start-up, the pressure regulator moves into its regulating position when there is enough oil pressure on the balance area of the valve to overcome spring forces. Once the pump creates enough line pressure to move the pressure regulator valve into its regulating position, the PR valve then directs excess pump volume to exhaust or back to the intake/suction side of the pump. The PR is "in balance" when there is enough pressure to keep the PR valve in its regulating position. It is "out of balance" when there is not enough oil pressure to keep the PR valve in its regulating position.

    The pressure regulator valve also controls the volume of oil that is fed to the torque converter: This, in turn, has a direct effect on converter release/fill pressure, cooling, and lubrication. In controlling converter feed, the PR valve is a type of priority valve. That is, it gives more priority to line pressure and less priority to converter/lube pressure. For the PR valve to remain in balance (with the converter circuit open), the forces at both ends of the valve must be near equal. If the PR valve stays out of balance for extended amounts of time, converter/lube oil will be restricted. Once this critical threshold is crossed and the PR valve is out of balance for any length of time, everything falls apart.

    Most of us have seen while pressure testing that slight needle twitch or momentary pressure drop when shifting. If you watch line pressure and cooler flow at the same time, when line pressure drops, you will see a corresponding change in cooler flow. This is because the pressure drop makes it all the way back to the balance end of the PR valve, and the forces at the other end of the PR valve overcome the reduced balance/line oil pressure and the PR valve moves out of balance. This restricts converter charge and the oil being re-circulated to the intake side of the pump. Converter charge is restricted, and priority is given to line pressure until it returns to the level that is sufficient to move the PR valve back to its in-balance regulating position. When everything is healthy and normal, this happens in an instant and is the way the system is supposed to work. Problems begin when the PR valve stays out of balance for extended periods of time. The priority valve characteristic means that if the PR valve is near that critical balance threshold, converter charge and lube oil are restricted. In effect, it's choking off the oil flow, ultimately leading to converter overheating. Problems at either end of the PR valve can put it out of balance. One end of the PR valve can have too much spring pressure, putting extra load on the pump. At the other end, there may not be enough balance pressure due to leaks or a weak pump.

    Picture a diesel truck lugging a load up a long incline: RPMs are low and desired line pressure is high. If pump output cannot maintain line pressure, the PR valve will move out of balance. Remember, the PR gives priority to line pressure, so it is conceivable under these circumstances to have near normal line pressure (and clutch holding capacity), but little or no cooler/lube flow due to the PR being out of balance. Imagine watching cooler flow drop off to nothing right at this critical time! I know you have seen the results melted planets or the converter paint burned and peeling off. Whether a low 60 psi at idle or 160 psi under load, the specific line pressure is not as significant as the pump's ability to maintain that line pressure and keep the PR valve in balance in its regulating position. crescent-type pumps, are more of a concern because they are fixed displacement and have lower output at low RPM and idle speeds.

    The pump's ability to maintain desired line pressure and keep the PR valve in balance also has variables. You can have a good pump but leaks in other oil circuits inside the transmission will consume oil pump volume and reduce the pump’s ability to create pressure. On the other hand, no internal leaks plus a worn or inefficient pump will exhibit the same problem maintaining line pressure. Think in terms of an air compressor volume/CFM and air tools. The compressor's ability to maintain pressure is related to how many air tools you run at the same time. Too many air tools and your compressor will not have enough CFM (volume) to maintain pressure, and air pressure will drop below its normal range. Pump volume is needed to maintain pressure: Pressure is needed to keep the PR valve in balance. Internal leaks throughout the transmission waste pump volume. All those little leaks which build up over time end up consuming available pump volume and reducing the pump's ability to build/maintain line pressure, keeping the PR valve in balance.

    This full time lube modification is adding an oil path between the line pressure and converter feed circuits, kind of bypassing the PR valve, so even if the PR valve is out of balance, there is always an oil path for oil to enter the converter feed circuit. This hole needs to be .060 drilling this hole too large allows too much oil to the converter, leading to over pressurizing and converter drain back so don’t drill any larger than .060. You may ask why do this, well if you haven’t gather that info from what I’ve written then lets break it down. What good is line pressure if you have very little to no oil lubricating the moving parts of the transmission, low cooler flow, and low flow of fluid to the converter? You get excess heat buildup in the fluid which we all know is probably the number one killer of transmissions.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #128

    Re: 3 speed auto Trans mods all in one place

    interesting. whats the down side? has anyone tried this?

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