GT30 Turbine Question....

[Frank]

Chris, I just sent you a PM.

[super60dodge]

Oh trust me. I want to run the GT30R and will be soon. I didnt realize that your car was making so little power. Sounds like you need to uncork the sob. So yes you have some massive restrictions... about 10psi worth!

So little power at what 370hp and 395tq on pump 93? I would say with a duell core I/C with 2" piping that is a solid number. I havent seen the dyno plot but I wouldnt say so little power that close to 400wtq.

He's got enough power now to need a cage any way

By the way If you read this as if Im mad or something Im not. Im just confused at why you state it's such little power thats all.

Joe

[glhs875]

So little power at what 370hp and 395tq on pump 93? I would say with a duell core I/C with 2" piping that is a solid number. I havent seen the dyno plot but I wouldnt say so little power that close to 400wtq.

He's got enough power now to need a cage any way

By the way If you read this as if Im mad or something Im not. Im just confused at why you state it's such little power thats all.

Joe

That's what I was thinking. That's about the power level my Daytona was at, and that thing was a beast!!. Was running low 8.20's @ 91 to 93mph- 2.0's to 2.2's- 60' on DOT's, with the boost staged for traction. Iam sure with slicks and with the boost unstaged mid 7's would of been the result. Race weight was around #2850.

[cordes]

So little power at what 370hp and 395tq on pump 93? I would say with a duell core I/C with 2" piping that is a solid number. I havent seen the dyno plot but I wouldnt say so little power that close to 400wtq.

He's got enough power now to need a cage any way

By the way If you read this as if Im mad or something Im not. Im just confused at why you state it's such little power thats all.

Joe

I think he was either being sarcastic, or refering to the fact that his setup flows well enough to make much more power at that boost level. I know he has a ton of work done to that car.

Lets face it, the double core IC won't hold too many people back. Something to be proud of in my book.

[8valves]

To be entirely honest, I'm kind of dissapointed with the numbers it produced when I really think about it. 26 psi on the 30R's compressor wheel is a lot more cfm than a 50 trim, just simply off looking at the size difference of the wheels. I was expecting it to hit over 400 whp without a problem. Regardless, it'll be all set and ready to go this spring now.

But yes, Frank, can you give some insight on what exactly you were saying? Oh and please don't think I'm insluted in any way... not the case at all! I'm just curious where you were going with that or what you see going on. Where did you come up with the 10 psi number? Random guess or what?

As much as I know the IC was a problem, I have a hard time thinking that it was holding the car back THAT much. If that's the case putting the new cooler on the car should be an entirely different car, and I should have to turn the boost controller way down in comparison to the last time it was ran.

Aaron Miller

[Frank]

All of this is done thru my Turbo Calculator that I developed...

Actually more like 9.5psi. Going off of formulas and BFSC for a more stock engine & pump gas, 300chp (15% loss for the tranny) should have been achieved at 16.5psi assuming a good cool temperature and clean power and zero psi/flow loss between turbo and intake.

If you recalculate the hp number such that the boost is now at 26psi with no loss, you should make 391chp.


Frank

[Frank]

Oh and your 2" IC pipes are only causing 1psi of loss.

And in addition, the numbers above are a little in accurate. I used pressure as defining loss. However about 1-2psi of that could be caused by increased temperature due to the turbocharger running hotter because it is fighting against the choke in the intake route.


Frank

[8valves]

All of this is done thru my Turbo Calculator that I developed...

Actually more like 9.5psi. Going off of formulas and BFSC for a more stock engine & pump gas, 300chp (15% loss for the tranny) should have been achieved at 16.5psi assuming a good cool temperature and clean power and zero psi/flow loss between turbo and intake.

If you recalculate the hp number such that the boost is now at 26psi with no loss, you should make 391chp.


Frank

So I'm guessing "chp" is calculated hp? So I'm 21 shy of your calculated numbers. The car does 310 whp and 315 wtq at 20 psi, so I'm already off at that point as well.

Now how does Reeve's motor do? When I saw his car at Turbopalooza he was running a 2 piece like I am (mine is highly worked inside, I would assume his is as well) and a 52mm TB if I remember correctly. He is/was on a Alabama Man header, and I have a similar TU header. His head I'm sure does a bit over 200, I'd be curious exactly where. Mine did 197/153, it should be up over 200 now with some extra little tricks for some power.

Now, he is on race gas and I've always been on 93, but other than that I always thought we were on pretty close levels of engine capabilities beyond displacement.

This is great stuff, please keep going with it. I think there is a lot for people to learn here, including myself!

Aaron Miller

[Frank]

You said above that you made 10whp for ever 1psi of boost. I was under the impression that you made 260whp.... hence the 9psi of restriction assumption i made.

Oh chp was crank-hp.

From the sounds of it, you are dead on with your car and having about 3psi of loss in the intercooer and nearly 1psi of loss in the pipes/TB.


Frank

[GLHNSLHT2]

4-7psi drop with a dual core stocker? I thought these were supposed to have closer to a 1psi pressure drop when running 2 of them? Does the motor flow that much more air that it's that restricted? Are the end tanks affecting it. I've been planning on running a dual core on my GLH with a GT30R. I'm going to try and fit a tripple core in there if I can but it may just benifit me going with a big spearco if these i/c's don't flow as well as I though when they're's 2 or more of them.

[Frank]

I wouldnt go with extreme. These numbers can be off just a little bit... because of the way the formulas work. If I dont properly perdict the intake temp, then it could say I need 1 more psi of air to make that HP requirement I give.


Frank

[8valves]

You said above that you made 10whp for ever 1psi of boost. I was under the impression that you made 260whp.... hence the 9psi of restriction assumption i made.

Oh chp was crank-hp.

From the sounds of it, you are dead on with your car and having about 3psi of loss in the intercooer and nearly 1psi of loss in the pipes/TB.


Frank

Ah! It all makes more sense now. I was saying that we were gaining 10 whp per lb of boost, from 20 psi at 310 whp to 26 psi to 370 even (okay, 369.9) whp. Glad we got that cleared up!

I don't think the dual core is so much of a restriction based on the turbo selection, but more the overall top end being geared towards a high rpm (relative) high flowing (relative) 8V head.

My end tanks are actually quite large w/ 3" inlet/outlets. They immediately are necked down to 2" IC piping though. It's a setup I've been running since the car was a complete S60 setup to the old Super 50 setup, to the current 30R. I just never got around to changing it. I think at this point the car is more lacking in in the air inlet department such as an open turbo inlet (now a decent cool air up where the battery was, 2.5" IC piping, a precision cooler, and hopefully a Mustang TB. For now the hogged out 2 piece will try it's best. I'ev thought about hacking off the elbow and welding on a true pipe bend as others have done, but the neck is hogged out so much I'm not sure if it's worth the effort.

Now Frank- earlier on in teh year, well, last early fall I guess, your estimations based upon calculations were that the 30R would run out of breath on our cars at about 420 whp I believe. It was back on td.com, but I'm pretty sure that's what you were guessing. Do you still think that's the case, or are you thinking it has the capabilities to go further now after seeing how it is acting?

I know compressor maps don't always give the most direct idea of how the turbo will act on a car, and what it can provide. You seem quite knoweldgeable on this (I'm not into the huge math complexities quite yet) so I was wondering if you think there might be more in it now.

Next question... what happens if I juice it?

Aaron Miller

[Frank]

On a 2.5L according to the math, 420whp (480chp) is the most you are going to get without some serious modifications.... full out flow ones... 3" pipes good IC and TB, etc. With those, you should get 450whp.

On a 2.2L, pretty much the same. At their respective peak HP RPM points.

Juicing it is nice because you dont run the compressor as hard to achieve the hp you want. Its all a different game then. I feel that if you were to do some really smart intake track modifications to your car, you could easily pull the Reeves power that you want.


Frank

[8valves]

Juicing it is nice because you dont run the compressor as hard to achieve the hp you want. Its all a different game then. I feel that if you were to do some really smart intake track modifications to your car, you could easily pull the Reeves power that you want.
Frank

I'm already working on that. I just found an old one piece intake that is going to get entirely ripped apart and used for it's injector mounting and flange with the rest being up to me. On from there will be a large TB and 3" IC piping w/ a similar sized TB. The best part is that I should be able to get away with it for decently cheap. We'll see how it goes. Anyone want a bad---- two piece intake w/ fuel system?

Aaron Miller

[Frank]

Sounds like you have a good plan. You will be on your way to making big power cleanly!!!!


Frank

[Frank]

I just ordered my GT30R! Should go well with my Steve M head, my future PT1000 A/W Intercooler, TU Header, and soon custom intake. (Some of that installed of course)


Frank

[glhs875]

I'm already working on that. I just found an old one piece intake that is going to get entirely ripped apart and used for it's injector mounting and flange with the rest being up to me. On from there will be a large TB and 3" IC piping w/ a similar sized TB. The best part is that I should be able to get away with it for decently cheap. We'll see how it goes. Anyone want a bad---- two piece intake w/ fuel system?

Aaron Miller

Why don't you build a custom larger upper plenum, with no added runner length over what the lower piece has? Then on the lower piece, port the runners at the plenum to achieve a velocity stack design. And also try to center the throttle body inlet at the plenum if possible for more equal flow distribution. I have noticed that cylinder #1 gets the most air, then #2, #3, &#4 on a 2 piece intake. There not that far off from each other, but there is a difference. From my findings, the 1 piece, with the way the plenum is designed seems to be better in this department. But seriously modifying the 1 piece could change the flow distribution if your not careful. I've not yet decided if there is much of a difference between the 1 piece or 2 piece, at the stock throttle body size levels. But I have noticed the 2 piece having a little better throttle response. You have a great combo going Aaron, but now it's time to get down to the nitty gritty. One thing I would do, is to see how much of a pressure drop before & after the cooler you actually do have @ 26psi.

[Frank]

Well said!

[cordes]

I just ordered my GT30R! Should go well with my Steve M head, my future PT1000 A/W Intercooler, TU Header, and soon custom intake. (Some of that installed of course)


Frank

Which car is that going in and what are your plans for it street/strip, or all out drag car? That is going to be one whicked setup.

Also, had anyone managed to get a large TB on a custom intake which is over the valve cover to feed the cylinders equally? I have heard it talked about many times, but I don't think I have seen any pictures. Seems like the next logical step when building the ideal intake. Although directly over the motor isn't exactly the prime place for it.

[Frank]

It is going on my 2.5L Daytona... Steve M head, TU header, 3" swingvalve and exhaust, PT1000 a/w intercooler (soon), TU fuel rail, Ross Pistons, Eagle SRT4 rods, 3spd Slowe Tranny, etc. All around car... summer daily driver. I need to put a cam and a LW Intake on.


Frank