Tips for honing cylinders for first time?

[iTurbo]

Hey everybody, I got a farily low miles '85 2.2L TI engine I'm rebuilding at the moment. I have it on a stand and upon disassembly everything is looking pretty good. I would like to just give it a quick hone and new rings on the stock pistons and let it rip. Would be happy with a 150 WHP daily driver motor out of this. I bought a three stone hone from Sears that mounts in a drill. I searched a bit and it sounds like a ball hone is preferred but this is what I got. I would appreciate any and all tips on how to get this right the first time as I am a total novice at engine building and looking forward to the learning experience here.

[moparman76_69]

Take it to a machine shop and have them hot tank and do a "touch hone" which preps the cylinder for new rings. It shouldn't cost anymore than a ball hone will.

[trannybuster]

http://www.hastingsmfg.com/ServiceTi...efinishing.htm

---------- Post added at 11:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 PM ----------

Another....not too big of a deal..


http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/tools/ts312.htm

[iTurbo]

Thanks for the links. I'm actually trying to avoid going to the machine shop. There is only one machine shop in town and while they do a good job, I usually end up waiting forever for them to get my stuff done. That's kinda why I bought my own tool to do this.

I finished disassembly of the motor tonight and was pleasantly surprised to find that everything is in really good shape. The engine came out of a Shelby Charger that had been sitting since '02. Pistons are a little dirty and the rings were stuck for the most part. Bores look fine with only a tiny bit of surface rust. The rod and main bearings all look like new though! I could tell they were all original as evidenced by the date stamp on them (1/85). Crankshaft looks great too! After removing the piston/rod assemblies, it spun incredibly smooth.

So far plan the plan is to just clean things up as much as I possibly can and install new standard size rings and bearings throughout. Just hope the hone job goes well...

[trannybuster]

You'll be fine,...no guts no glory. I use lacquer thinner on white rags to clean the cylinders after hone, dont stop until the rag remains white, because as the article says the cleanliness is the most critical part. Is use the three stone hone myself, I did both my kids cars, neither burn a drop of oil, and I actually learned something from those articles so...

[135sohc]

I bought a set of these for my engine build. Worth every penny.
http://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece...set-90631.html

Go one better and cut the loops off the end, chuck in the cordless drill with some brakecleaner... stupidly effective and extremely easy to get all the bolt holes surgical grade clean.

[shelbymonster]

i use the 3 stone (240 grit) iirc then a ball hone that i cant remember the grit tho , always had good compression and never took oil

[iTurbo]

The hone I have is a Craftsman 9-4633 3-stone. It doesn't say what grit the stones are on the package but the suggested replacements (9-46331) are 220 grit so I'm pretty sure that is what they are. The '87 FSM I'm working with suggests using 220 for deglazing and removing light scuffing, scoring or scratches. The next paragraph suggests using 280 grit stones for deglazing. Will I be OK just using the 220s?

Also, what to using for a honing oil. FSM suggests C-3501-3880 whatever that is. It specifically says not to use engine or transmission oil, mineral spirits or kerosene. Hrm hopefully Napa has something suitable in stock.

Thanks for all the tips; really dig the drill mounted brush idea 135sohc.

[anarchyjet]

Also, what to using for a honing oil. FSM suggests C-3501-3880 whatever that is. It specifically says not to use engine or transmission oil, mineral spirits or kerosene. Hrm hopefully Napa has something suitable in stock.

Thanks for all the tips; really dig the drill mounted brush idea 135sohc.

I always use brake clean, just keep spraying the whole time you are honing. The key is to get your drill speed and stroke down to get a 45 degree cross hatch.

[turbovanman²]

Don't use a 3 bar hone, they are extremely hard to get the proper finish, they are good for a machine shop but disaster for the home builder, buy a ball hone. I did a few back in the day and couldn't get the rings to seat, gave up and bought a ball hone, never again. I use my Dewalt 12 volt cordless drill,

Use light oil, IE WD40, don't use brake cleaner, its too dry.

[Directconnection]

Don't use a 3 bar hone, they are extremely hard to get the proper finish, they are good for a machine shop but disaster for the home builder, buy a ball hone. I did a few back in the day and couldn't get the rings to seat, gave up and bought a ball hone, never again. I use my Dewalt 12 volt cordless drill,

Use light oil, IE WD40, don't use brake cleaner, its too dry.

I agree with Simon. The reason for the lack of success is that it's a "rigid" type of hone if it's what I'm thinking (3 stones) What you have on a used motor is out of round and taper. Using this style of hone will make taper, etc worse if you're not familiair with it and also... don't have a good dial bore gauge to check where the taper and out of roundness is at. A Sunnen CK-10 is the standard machine in the industry and I've run it a few times. It takes some understanding and experience to make even a freshly BORED (ie: stright and taper free) stay straight, round and taper-free. Most wear is it the top of the bore 3/4" from the top of the deck) and quite a bit in the middle, fore and aft. Side to side isn't so bad as the skirt doesn't and thrust doesn't ride there. One reason why the stones can make taper is the fact of certain points of the cylinder seeing constant stone honing. On a CK-10, you adjust the stroke longer or shorter to induce taper (or bell shaped) and height of the stroke so the stones come out further. Having them come out further means you can remove a bit more material at the top.... as there's more stone time happening (and other reasons...) So basically, you should have a dial bore gauge if using that set up and an understanding of where and how long of a stroke to use to correct bell shape and tapers. Dwell also works good, too.

But then again, a bunch of people just hack at machine work on motors and always get lucky, too :-) We do work that CarQuest is nit capable of, or customers want double checked. A Ford 429 SCJ came in that they worked on, and it had so many problems..... even though it was ready to run via carquest.

[trannybuster]

I wont stoop so low, both do work...and with good results. Due diligence will ensure a happy ending...let us know how it turns out either way(pics maybe of hatch job?).

[Pat]

Due diligence will ensure a happy ending

That's what she said! Sorry, couldn't resist that one. :-)

[iTurbo]

I agree with Simon. The reason for the lack of success is that it's a "rigid" type of hone if it's what I'm thinking (3 stones) What you have on a used motor is out of round and taper. Using this style of hone will make taper, etc worse if you're not familiair with it and also... don't have a good dial bore gauge to check where the taper and out of roundness is at. A Sunnen CK-10 is the standard machine in the industry and I've run it a few times. It takes some understanding and experience to make even a freshly BORED (ie: stright and taper free) stay straight, round and taper-free. Most wear is it the top of the bore 3/4" from the top of the deck) and quite a bit in the middle, fore and aft. Side to side isn't so bad as the skirt doesn't and thrust doesn't ride there. One reason why the stones can make taper is the fact of certain points of the cylinder seeing constant stone honing. On a CK-10, you adjust the stroke longer or shorter to induce taper (or bell shaped) and height of the stroke so the stones come out further. Having them come out further means you can remove a bit more material at the top.... as there's more stone time happening (and other reasons...) So basically, you should have a dial bore gauge if using that set up and an understanding of where and how long of a stroke to use to correct bell shape and tapers. Dwell also works good, too.

But then again, a bunch of people just hack at machine work on motors and always get lucky, too :-) We do work that CarQuest is nit capable of, or customers want double checked. A Ford 429 SCJ came in that they worked on, and it had so many problems..... even though it was ready to run via carquest.

So, in your opinion, should I get a ball hone and do it with that or just drop it off at machine shop? One nice thing about the machine shop is that they would hot tank it and it would really clean too, but I might not get it back for six months.

[supercharged024]

Get a ball hone and use WD40 or even tranny fluid. Something to keep the stones lubricated or they will actually scratch the surface too much. After you're all done with the hone and ready to clean the block I actually recommend if you can use hot soapy water and rinse/ blow dry and then coat machined surfaces with light coat of WD40. There's nothing wrong with using soap and water to clean the engine and is better than solvents. You want to make sure that you do not feel any slick oily surfaces on the inside of the block after you're all done. Those tiny particles of metal and stone from using the ball hone will stay in the oily residue so to ensure that the block is completely clean that's how I get the block ready for reassembly.

[turbovanman²]

So, in your opinion, should I get a ball hone and do it

Consensus say's yes.

[4 l-bodies]

Jeremy,
Best bet is just ask the machine shop flat out that you need this in x amount of time (week, 2 weeks, whatever). Can they do it (or not) and at what cost? If all they are doing is simple hone they should be able to take care of that quickly. Either they will want the work or they won't. Then hold them to that time frame. Then hound them continuously if they are taking longer than promised. Squeaky wheel get the grease.
I personally think if you are going to try to do this yourself to use the ball hone along with some WD-40. Get a big torque slow speed 1/2" drill. You can easily smoke a cheap drill doing this procedure. My Bosch 1/2" (piece of poop) drill died this way. Goodson has a fine and course ball hone for our bores. They also sell hone solvent too. These guys ship fast too! They are in the same state as me, but one order arrived like 12 hours after ordering it! I would choose the fine ball hone if you have a choice. Clean with WD-40 and white paper towels until towels remain same color. If taking it to shop clean bores with WD-40 as well. I'll bet you will find block's bores aren't quite as clean as you think they are.
Todd

[135sohc]

Dont patronize sh!tty businesses, thats all I can say after going through that experiance of hell last year...

[4 l-bodies]

Dont patronize sh!tty businesses, thats all I can say after going through that experiance of hell last year...

Boy I agree with that. I just severed ties with the company that had all my piston orders the last few years. When they can't even get the correct # of pistons made on two separate orders, they have problems...

[iTurbo]

Thanks all. I'm going to hit up Napa today and see what I can get for a ball hone. I still have to get a ring filer and an expander as well. I might drop by the machine shop just to see if this is something he could do *today* though.