helping a coworker - 2.5 600 engine into carbled turismo body???

[soncjet]

Long story short...

I work with a guy who is having trouble with a swap. He has a carbed turismo hatch, that he is in the process of swapping (i believe) a 2.5 non turbo out of a dodge 600, into. The shop that has the car thought they could do it, but have been running into stumbling blocks between the wiring and other associated issues. my coworker is looking for options

I come from the VW world, where there is pretty much a DIY for any type of swap you might ever want to do. i've spent a few hours trolling around here, and cant really find anything, or any type of writeups for this sort of thing.


he is at the point where he wants to take the harness from the turismo, and basically cut it off about a foot past the fuse block, and splice in wire by wire the 600 engine harness, which IMO seems like the old school way of doing these type of swaps. I would think that there is a harness swap, or something along those lines to get him on the road.

he knows that he needs the FI fuel pump from a late 80's early 90's car, and i believe has that already.

help!

thanks. Brian

---------- Post added at 08:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------

my swap car....

[cordes]

His best bet is to find a harness out of a GLH or Shelby Charger and use that. Does he have the motor in the car already and it's just an electrical issue now?

Any shop that can't figure this out should be avoided like the plague if they're getting real money for their time.

[soncjet]

yes, i'm pretty sure the engine is physically in. the odd thing - my buddy works down the street from this shop - and said that there are always glh/chargers sitting around. the guy working on it seems to be stumped apparently. i don't really know what the deal is.

it doesnt seem like it should be this hard to do. should, being the key word here.

would he use the entire car harness, or is there just an engine harness for this? excuse my ignorance, i really don't know the firs things about these cars - i'm just trying to help a computer-unsaavy guy get his car up and running.

[cordes]

There may be some wiring cavity differences at the bulk head connector near the brake booster, but it will interface with the turbo engine side wiring harness. He will also have to put the logic module in the car under the pass side kick panel and the wiring needs to be passed through that area where the currently is no hole.

He could also use a Single Module Engine Control setup which would keep everything under the hood, that would mean more work at the bulk head connector though. A Single Board unit which was from 90-91 would work much the same, but it's more rare with less support and a little more work since it's sequential injection.

If you have the wiring diagrams for both harnesses it should be relatively straight forward.

[soncjet]

the engine going in is a NON turbo engine. apparently if it was a turbo engine, his guy said it would be done by now?!? i dont know.

thanks for the other thoughts though. i will pass them on to mike in the morning.

[cordes]

That's BS about the engine. The only thing which needs to be done to get it on the road is to drill the block for the oil return. The boss is already there so that's easy. It would be nice to have the stronger rods and turbo pistons along with the turbo valves in the head, but guys have run them at very low boost on premium with TBI motors. I would think the car should live on 5-6PSI with premium fuel and a TBI long block pretty easily.

What trans is he putting in it? Auto, manual? If manual which one? The stock 525s are quite fragile compared to later transmissions.

[soncjet]

cordes - neither car (the donor or the recipient) is turbo, so there arent going to be any boost issues.


some additional info that i didnt have complete before.

the driveline donor 600 is an 86, Throttle Body Injection, 2.5, Automatic (donor engine/trans)
the turismo is an 87, 2.2 Carb, Automatic (body it is going into)

The engine & trans are physically in the turismo currently. he had to switch some mounts around, but it is currently sitting in the car.


Mike is currently leaning towards just finding the wiring diagrams from both cars, and sitting down and splicing all the wires. i guess he is waiting to hear from the local dealership to see if they can/will provide him with the wiring colors for each car.

[raccoon]

what i would do, I would find a newer 88-95 engine harness and computer from anything but a shadow.

this way the engine computer is in the engine bay, really cuts down on the amount of wires in the dash. then just repin your 50pin plug. you may need the matching sensors from whatever year you grab the harness as small details in the plugs change.

what kinda fuel pump is in there? it was mechanical before...

[cordes]

cordes - neither car (the donor or the recipient) is turbo, so there arent going to be any boost issues.


some additional info that i didnt have complete before.

the driveline donor 600 is an 86, Throttle Body Injection, 2.5, Automatic (donor engine/trans)
the turismo is an 87, 2.2 Carb, Automatic (body it is going into)

The engine & trans are physically in the turismo currently. he had to switch some mounts around, but it is currently sitting in the car.


Mike is currently leaning towards just finding the wiring diagrams from both cars, and sitting down and splicing all the wires. i guess he is waiting to hear from the local dealership to see if they can/will provide him with the wiring colors for each car.

I see. He will probably have to do some cutting and soldering. I think the pins are the same size in both bulk head connectors, but the bulk head connectors are indeed different. It shouldn't be too bad if you have the factory service manuals for both years.

What is he looking to get out of this swap? There is no support for the early TBI stuff like he is working with and I can't imagine that there would be a performance gain vs. the original carb setup with a webber swapped on there.

[88_pacifica]

Let me make sure that we are understanding correctly:

He is removing his original carbureted 2.2 motor and wanting to replace it with a non-turbo 2.5 motor, correct? I would assume the Turismo is a pre '85 model car as well? The primary goal of this swap is strictly to move over to fuel injection, or did the carbed motor go bad? What is his thoughts here?

Here are a few things that he should note:

- The 2.5 motor has a slightly increased height due to the fact the block is slightly taller(tall deck block) so some things will be slightly different(timing belt, etc).
- There are two(2) modules on the cars that are pre 1988, so you must remember that replacing both may be necessary. Later models had it all incorporated into one unit(SMEC,SBEC)
- Any N/A fuel injected wiring harness out of any Chrysler 2.2. or 2.5 car THROUGH 1987 should work for your application. The lengths of the wire may be longer than needed if it comes out of a larger car/engine bay, but it can be made to work without cutting the wires.
- The only real addition necessary besides the wiring should be the fuel pump. Be sure that he replaces the rubber fuel lines that go from the metal hard lines to the TBI/carburetor. This is a common failure point.
- Chryslers REQUIRE the extremely tight grounds to function correctly. If a single ground is not tightened fully, the car will run poorly or may not even start. Be certain that all wiring is checked for tightness and also make sure that they are in good shape. They also used 'in-line fusible links' so a used harness shuold be checked for continuity in all lines PRIOR to being installed. It will be much easier to check before it is installed.

If this were merely a 'replacement motor' due to the failure of the original 2.2, he would be wise to use the 2.5 in place of the 2.2 and keep it carbureted. Nearly everything would remain the same and he would not have to make these changes. I am sure that this is already known, but I just wanted to make sure I stated this.

[soncjet]

What is he looking to get out of this swap?

pretty sure it was a case of cheap car, plus low mileage engine. nothing more, nothing less. we call him 6 cylinder miller - he's afraid to own anything fast or powerful. so doing it for any performance gains is non existant i'm sure.

Let me make sure that we are understanding correctly:

He is removing his original carbureted 2.2 motor and wanting to replace it with a non-turbo 2.5 motor, correct? I would assume the Turismo is a pre '85 model car as well? The primary goal of this swap is strictly to move over to fuel injection, or did the carbed motor go bad? What is his thoughts here?

The car is an 87, but other than that the replacement of it all, that is pretty much it. i dont know the status of the carbed motor unfortunately.

[88_pacifica]

pretty sure it was a case of cheap car, plus low mileage engine. nothing more, nothing less. we call him 6 cylinder miller - he's afraid to own anything fast or powerful. so doing it for any performance gains is non existant i'm sure.

Hmmm... It does appear that this is going the other way at this point. I can't imagine that it's cost efficient at this point.

The car is an 87, but other than that the replacement of it all, that is pretty much it. i dont know the status of the carbed motor unfortunately.

Knowing what you stated above, is it too late or too much work to replace with the carbed setup? All you need is to install the carb intake side of the motor(a few bolts). In the nature of cost relationship, maybe you and him could put it all back that way it was? It would depend on how far the shop got with the process I suppose. The fuel demands would be nearly the same and the timing tables on a carbed motor would be pretty close I would imagine, even if there is a slightly larger displacement. Since you are a VW(car guy) I think you both could do it in an afternoon and save lots of money, especially if the motor and trans are already in...

[ScottD]

Are the bulkhead connectors different between L and K bodies?

The 600 has 4 headlights as the Charger does. If the bulkhead connectors are the same, the 2.5 FI harness from the 600 should go right into the Charger. The logic module and power module could be used also. I'm assuming the 600 is not an 88 model year, but an 87 or earlier which would have the LM/PM set up instead of the SMEC set up of the 88. 88 was the last year the 600 was made.

If the bulkhead connectors are different, then it would be better to use an engine bay harness AND underdash harness from an 88-89 Omni/Horizon.

Other than that, your friend needs the fuel pump, an FI fuel tank (which he can get from an 88-90 Omni/Horizon), and the metal fuel lines as well to run back to the tank.

This is a lot of work for a carb'd car, a lot of times people consider engine swaps in the carb'd cars because they can't get the Holley to run right, but swapping to a Weber DFEV cures the driveability problems the Holley suffers from.

[cordes]

Are the bulkhead connectors different between L and K bodies?

The 600 has 4 headlights as the Charger does. If the bulkhead connectors are the same, the 2.5 FI harness from the 600 should go right into the Charger. The logic module and power module could be used also. I'm assuming the 600 is not an 88 model year, but an 87 or earlier which would have the LM/PM set up instead of the SMEC set up of the 88. 88 was the last year the 600 was made.

If the bulkhead connectors are different, then it would be better to use an engine bay harness AND underdash harness from an 88-89 Omni/Horizon.

Other than that, your friend needs the fuel pump, an FI fuel tank (which he can get from an 88-90 Omni/Horizon), and the metal fuel lines as well to run back to the tank.

This is a lot of work for a carb'd car, a lot of times people consider engine swaps in the carb'd cars because they can't get the Holley to run right, but swapping to a Weber DFEV cures the driveability problems the Holley suffers from.

I believe the L body has a 40 way connector while the K body cars are 50 way.