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Thread: My v6 Drag Week build

  1. #41
    turbo addict
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Quote Originally Posted by c2xejk View Post
    The timing err % is still pretty large (ranges between -12.7 to +12.7) Not sure what to make of that. I am hoping that we are now dealing with 12.7% of 10 degrees instead of 12.7% of 120 degrees... That would be a big improvement.
    Well I hope it didin't eat the key slot on the crank.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  2. #42

    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Actually looks like the #1 plug is not firing... Not sure why yet.

  3. #43
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    lol, number 1 plug not firing.

    that explains everything if that was happening DURING our runs. My car will idle fine with 5 spark plugs it seems like.

  4. #44
    turbo addict Murphy's Avatar
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadWarrior222 View Post
    ... okay I'm kidding, but it does seem to be something of a problem in that you can quickly overwhelm any grip you managed to find with these with minor upgrades, it all goes on the bottom too ... SMEC programming doesn't help though, it's like torque from 0 rpm to 2000, then fall on it's face because it pulled timing for emissions then turn it on again at 2700 ish.....then you fall off the cam at 5000.
    replace the cams and it will pull to the limiter!
    95 spirit 3.0/543 15.0@91 N/A, 14.5@96 on a 50 shot RIP 87 shelby Z - project car, maybe I can drive it this year 91 spirit - roll it, chop the top, do some burnouts! RIP

  5. #45
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    I think most people have problems other than the stock ECU. My 3.0 car wants to make power past the rev limiter and trapped 88.4 with the stock 180* intake pipe and a pretty shitty 2.25" exhaust, stock cams and ecu.

    Honestly, i can think of at least two 3.0s on megasquirt on this forum that are slower on the same or more mods, one that isnt enough faster to represent how much more work it has in it, 1 supposedly fast 3.0 on an aftermarket ems that hasnt run in a LONG time, 1 car that only managed to run the same as mine with a 50 shot, etc etc etc.

    It's fun to talk about how crappy the stock tune is, but honestly MOST people with modded 3.0s have way bigger issues than the stock ECU and at some point talking about the stock ecu is just distracting from fixing the real issues.

    Im not trying to bash on anyone (i like most of the projects i mentioned), but there are definitely times when the stock setup is NOT the problem.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  6. #46
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Quote Originally Posted by c2xejk View Post
    Actually looks like the #1 plug is not firing... Not sure why yet.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  7. #47
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Honestly, i can think of at least two 3.0s on megasquirt on this forum that are slower on the same or more mods, one that isnt enough faster to represent how much more work it has in it, 1 supposedly fast 3.0 on an aftermarket ems that hasnt run in a LONG time, 1 car that only managed to run the same as mine with a 50 shot, etc etc etc.

    It's fun to talk about how crappy the stock tune is, but honestly MOST people with modded 3.0s have way bigger issues than the stock ECU and at some point talking about the stock ecu is just distracting from fixing the real issues.
    your right.

    now take those slower megasquirt cars and get them tuned correctly on a dyno and see who is faster. Ed's car had more of a problem than the tune being off. it was a physical problem and we think its the cams being offset. we could not get the car to have a consistent air fuel ratio which robs power and he never spent days and days the dyno perfecting the ignitioin timing (to my knoledge). Between runs we added timing, took timing away and then added a crap ton of timing. no dyno used just one big guess, cant expect to go as fast as the car can possibly go by guessing.. and we knew this.. no complaining here.


    and now we come to see that it might be running on 5cyl? well no wonder it pulled like it was on 5cyl.

  8. #48

    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    I think the biggest issue I had was lack of traction... My best launch came by launching at 1100 RPM and pedaling out of hole for a 2.1 60'. I was past the 60' before I could even go WOT. With decent traction (ie. slicks like you had during your run) I think the results would have been much better.

    After I got back I put the car on the dyno and tuned A/F and spark advance in and gained 10 hp... On the last day of Drag Week I left it lean thinking it wouldn't make a difference. The engine does not like being rich... About 7 of 10 hp gained came from leaning the engine out. The timing added during drag week helped, it just needed to be dialed back a little.

    I think there are more gains to be found. Right now, I think my #2 limiting factor is the stock exhaust manifolds are holding back the top-end. The half-header helped low-rpm torque, but having to go through the crossover is limiting top-end power. Plans for a full header are in the works.

    #3 limiting factor, the valves are sized for low-rpm torque not high-rpm power. Again plans are in the works to fix that.

    #4 limiting factor, the intake runners are wrong for top-end power. They are designed for low-rpm torque... Again plans are in the works to fix that.

    Bottom line, there is a whole bunch of things designed for low-rpm torque. Just fixing one helps, but to make big changes, you have to fix them all.


    The #1 cylinder not firing is a new issue and unrelated to Drag Week. This problem is very noticeable when you are on the throttle and makes the car "undrivable". It feels a lot like two spark plug wires are swapped. Idles ok, but when you tip in it starts stuttering.

  9. #49

    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    I remember watching that. I haven't fully diagnosed my problem completely yet, but have you checked the cap to make sure the terminal for the rotor is connected to the one up top. I have heard of cases where that fails. Especially on some of the cheap ones...

  10. #50
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Quote Originally Posted by c2xejk View Post
    I remember watching that. I haven't fully diagnosed my problem completely yet, but have you checked the cap to make sure the terminal for the rotor is connected to the one up top. I have heard of cases where that fails. Especially on some of the cheap ones...
    No I haven't done anything else with it just yet. I am planning to just buy a new cap, rotor and wires and throw on it. I put new plugs in already.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  11. #51
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    now take those slower megasquirt cars and get them tuned correctly on a dyno and see who is faster.
    The same could be a said for a modded version of the stock cal.. I was just pointing out that unless you are already good at tuning, going away from the stock ecu causes more problems than it solves, and some of the people who would think about adding a MS or any other EMS to the equation might just be layering more variables onto their underlying problems.

    With decent traction (ie. slicks like you had during your run) I think the results would have been much better.
    Im not disagreeing with you, but my best ET was had with a 2.16 60'. Either because of my bad driving or a bad clutch, or both, i never got below 2.08 with the slicks on that trip. Im sure i will find a lot of improvement the more i practice. Im amazed you were able to get a 2.1 with that kind of launch on street tires. Goes to show how much the driver plays into it. You will probably get better slicks results than i did on your first try.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  12. #52

    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Im not disagreeing with you, but my best ET was had with a 2.16 60'. Either because of my bad driving or a bad clutch, or both, i never got below 2.08 with the slicks on that trip. Im sure i will find a lot of improvement the more i practice. Im amazed you were able to get a 2.1 with that kind of launch on street tires. Goes to show how much the driver plays into it. You will probably get better slicks results than i did on your first try.
    The car just has that much torque down low... I was struggling to get enough traction. My first launches were my usual rev to 3K and let out clutch quickly while mashing the gas. That just resulted in the tires spinning and going no where. I have not had the problem before... I have had them spin then grab and go, but not just continually spinning... Slicks have the potential to make a HUGE difference on this car...


    On other fronts, changed the #1 spark plug and the miss is gone. Took the car for a spin and I am still struggling with the hall-effect not reading right at higher RPM (7200 and higher) and causing sync loss... Looks like I need to adjust the hall-effect air gap...

    Timing Err % bounced around +/- 12.7 through the whole RPM range... Not sure what to make of that...

  13. #53

    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    I spent some time working on the hall-effect again today. I played with the gap on the sensor to see how much difference it made. At one point I had the gap down to ~0.035" and was reving and idling. Some where in there I heard a grinding noise shut things down and sure enough the toothed wheel had touched sensor and wore a small groove. The sensor was still bolted in tight so the wheel must have moved...

    That was the motivating factor for me to change how I mounted the wheel. Instead of bolting the wheel to the pulley, I decided it was time to weld the wheel on. I gutted the center of the toothed wheel, centered the wheel on the crank pulley and put in 8 tack welds.

    Double checked the centering and it pretty much exactly centered on the pulley. Now R&R'ing the pulley will be easier. I will no longer have spend time fussing with the toothed wheel to make sure it is centered. Just bolt it on and check/set the sensor spacing. This is what I should have done to begin with!

    Took the car out for a spin and was able to rev it to the 7500 rev limiter! I have turned on some of the noise filtering (Tach period rejection, tach interrupt masking, and polarity checking.) That seems to help.

    Timing Err % is still bouncing around between +/- 12.7%. I have been debating moving to a newer MS2 firmware.

  14. #54
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Makes sense.. well that's one problem licked!

    7500 sounds fun. I want to do that with my Caravan but i have to run the pulley ratios to see if the m90 will spin that fast without asploding. I just want to hear it. hehe.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  15. #55
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    i would update the firmware. I was on the same firmware as you but now i have the newest one (upddated it a while ago)

    i didnt notice a difference (no problems to fix that i knew of) but updated firmware is usually for a reason in most cases

  16. #56
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    ed, I also would suggest a firmware update. The code revisions usually help with oddball issues I haven't had much issues with my ford VR sensor once i got the toothed wheel mounted. I am also running an air gap of like .1" and rev to 7500 w/o issues. have you tried using a new/different VR sensor possibly?

    Vigo, whats the stock crank pully diameter and are you using a ford Supercoupe M90? I got a calculator spreadsheet worked up off of Corky Bell's Supercharged book that will output CFM, temp gain, S/C Rpm etc if you want me to run your #s

  17. #57
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Just a thunk, is there any chance that timing is responding to a faulty sensor, such as an intermittent CTS or something?
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  18. #58
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    good point rw222, a bad CLT or IAT sensor with temp or intake temp ignion adjustment will screw with your timing. I accidentially ran for a while wth knock enabld but no knock sensor. The MS was constantly pulling max timing as no signal was triggering timing retard.

  19. #59
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    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    MS looks extremely capable, loving what I'm reading!

    Also, 7500 sounds fun!

  20. #60

    Re: My v6 Drag Week build

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdoe8 View Post
    MS looks extremely capable, loving what I'm reading!
    That is both it's strength and weakness. You can configure it so many ways, but you do have to tune it and you are likely to spend some time figuring out problems... For a while I was trying to figure out why I suddenly couldn't rev past 2K rpm. Turns out I had enabled a noise filter that was causing problems... There was more than a little hair pulling as I tried to figure out the problem!

    Also, 7500 sounds fun!
    Yup, right now I am not making big power there. I have been experimenting some with cam timing and have the cams advanced 4 degrees which favors lower-rpm power... Likely be back to making power there with the next head and cam though.

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