My v6 Drag Week build

[Reaper1]

I'd figure temps rise because of the high load that is being demanded from the engine. My car always did the same thing, but it would level off before getting too hot as long as I kept moving. If I stopped it would occasionally cause the temps to go a little higher than I'd like.

An oil cooler will help with this (it won't solve it), but the way I see it, it's an indication the cooling system is not adequate enough to handle what the engine it doing. This is most of the reason why I'm rethinking using the TU aluminum radiator I have. I just don't think it's going to be able to handle what I'm going to be asking of the engine.

[Sundance 6g72]

Ed, what rad. are you running currently?

[c2xejk]

Stock for an 87 Shadow.

[Ondonti]

I would assume stock for an 87 shadow still means a larger radiator then a TII setup from the 4 cylinders. Even a large later model radiator will heat up if you are sitting in traffic, That is only because the fan doesn't turn on until 220 degrees or so and there is no airflow without the fan when sitting still. It happens a LOT faster when towing at very low speeds, within a few minutes. Its not a problem and is not actually related to a lack of cooling ability. I have heard of a few 4 cylinders with turbo II radiators that would start to overheat just driving up large hills at freeway speeds. Same hill I could tow a car and not have a heat problem (no boost setup).

If Ed wanted more space I think an aftermarket radiator might fit farther forward but I think he already has a pusher fan to make room for his 24v head and exhaust manifold and you still need room for front mount air/air. His air/water intercooled Spirit doesn't need space on either the front or rear of the radiator :P

For those of us with functional cooling systems, I think those running an adjustable fan switch might be happier running a much lower fan switchon point. I don't exactly understand why they wait until 220 degrees to kick on the fan. Is that some sort of attempt at making the engine run hot for emissions while sitting still OR because they just didn't want the fan cycling constantly? I never setup my Fidle circuit on Megasquirt to activate the fan relay so I am running manual (not preferred) and I stole the dedicated harness wire for clutch switch grounding.

One issue for fan turn on temp is the difference between 195 degree stats and 180. Much larger temp swing. 220 degree turn on temp doesn't seem crazy with a 195 degree thermostat. When you put in a 180 degree thermostat, it seems like something it wrong when temps swing up where they are actually supposed to be.

I will mention that at high altitude in high heat, with 100% water (for racing) my Duster would overheat slightly all the time when my fan was not turned on before coming to a stop. Run cool until the last minute in a parking lot, turn off car, then 2 minutes later the overflow bottle would dump out water. When beating on the car with air moving through the radiator I never saw high temps, even with a headgasket starting to fail.

Ed, did you run coolant during drag week? Sometimes I get too cheap to dump much Water Wetter into the mix and I only feel like 100% water is necessary when you are pushing your motor fairly hard. Tracks don't want you to run coolant if you ask but obviously a lot of vehicles are running coolant.

[c2xejk]

I would assume stock for an 87 shadow still means a larger radiator then a TII setup from the 4 cylinders. Even a large later model radiator will heat up if you are sitting in traffic, That is only because the fan doesn't turn on until 220 degrees or so and there is no airflow without the fan when sitting still. It happens a LOT faster when towing at very low speeds, within a few minutes. Its not a problem and is not actually related to a lack of cooling ability. I have heard of a few 4 cylinders with turbo II radiators that would start to overheat just driving up large hills at freeway speeds. Same hill I could tow a car and not have a heat problem (no boost setup).

Yes, this a T1 style radiator.

If Ed wanted more space I think an aftermarket radiator might fit farther forward but I think he already has a pusher fan to make room for his 24v head and exhaust manifold and you still need room for front mount air/air. His air/water intercooled Spirit doesn't need space on either the front or rear of the radiator :P

I have run a variety of fan styles in both pusher and puller configuration. The current fan is a puller. 14" or 16" forget which, but it was the largest single fan that would fit on the radiator. I had to move the upper radiator mounts slightly forward to have enough clearance.

[/QUOTE]For those of us with functional cooling systems, I think those running an adjustable fan switch might be happier running a much lower fan switchon point. I don't exactly understand why they wait until 220 degrees to kick on the fan. Is that some sort of attempt at making the engine run hot for emissions while sitting still OR because they just didn't want the fan cycling constantly? I never setup my Fidle circuit on Megasquirt to activate the fan relay so I am running manual (not preferred) and I stole the dedicated harness wire for clutch switch grounding.

One issue for fan turn on temp is the difference between 195 degree stats and 180. Much larger temp swing. 220 degree turn on temp doesn't seem crazy with a 195 degree thermostat. When you put in a 180 degree thermostat, it seems like something it wrong when temps swing up where they are actually supposed to be.

I will mention that at high altitude in high heat, with 100% water (for racing) my Duster would overheat slightly all the time when my fan was not turned on before coming to a stop. Run cool until the last minute in a parking lot, turn off car, then 2 minutes later the overflow bottle would dump out water. When beating on the car with air moving through the radiator I never saw high temps, even with a headgasket starting to fail. [/QUOTE]

I turn the fan on at 190F. Theoretically there is a fuel economy gain by running the engine hotter. After two failed fans, I want some early warning if another fan starts failing. (FYI this fan is from SummitRacing and has been rock solid. )

Ed, did you run coolant during drag week? Sometimes I get too cheap to dump much Water Wetter into the mix and I only feel like 100% water is necessary when you are pushing your motor fairly hard. Tracks don't want you to run coolant if you ask but obviously a lot of vehicles are running coolant.

In '11 I ran coolant. In '12 and '13 I ran water and Water Wetter.

[Sundance 6g72]

Are you using a Megasquirt output to drive the fan? I cant remember

[c2xejk]

Are you using a Megasquirt output to drive the fan? I cant remember

Yes. I am using the FIdle output to drive the fan...

[Reaper1]

One of the reasons they let the engine get up to 220*F is because of the boiling point of water. Some of the byproducts of running an engine include water vapors which build up in the oil. So, by letting the engine get up to and past the boiling point of water, it is boiled off reducing the contamination. It also does have to do with emissions somewhat.

I'll have to check, but I think I had my Shel-Game cal set up to turn the fan on at 210*F and off at 220*F, but I'll have to check. Yes, the fan cycles more, but I'd rather keep the engine in a narrow temperature range than large swings, just like Brent has said.

As for a better radiator, I thought years ago somebody found that there are HD options for aftermarket radiators that are double row. The only bad thing is they are plastic end tanks.

[c2xejk]

Finally pulled the transmission on my Spirit R/T (last years Drag Week car.)

The flywheel and clutch. You can see the heat damage...







The new clutch. Unfortunately, it does not fit on the transmission input shaft. Confirmed that both are 18 spline (small spline). And that is what I was expecting ('90 A543.)

[Sundance 6g72]

thats disappointing

[Reaper1]

Finally pulled the transmission on my Spirit R/T (last years Drag Week car.)

The flywheel and clutch. You can see the heat damage...







The new clutch. Unfortunately, it does not fit on the transmission input shaft. Confirmed that both are 18 spline (small spline). And that is what I was expecting ('90 A543.)

It looks sort of like the outer parts of those pucks on your old clutch weren't getting as much force applied or were not making full contact with the plate/flywheel. Maybe it's just the way the light is playing. I'd be interested to see if the thickness of the pucks is different from the inside compared to the outside.

As for the hub not fitting...how bad is it? Will it engage the splines, but not slide on? If so, you might have to bust out the file and "file fit" the hub. This isn't entirely bad as then you know that the hub fits with minimal slop so the "wobble" is very small. That will help with smooth engagement.

Also, how are there multiple straps on the pressure plate? I've heard more than 1 person have issues with really strong pressure plates vs. ceramic puck discs paired with high power. I had an issue with that, but mine most likely was caused by a bad shift.

[c2xejk]

You can feel the very end sort of align with the shaft. It doesn't really engage the splines.

[Ondonti]

Reaper1, not sure if your comment about # of straps makes sense.

Ed, a tight fitting disc is a good thing and something I have read people being happy about regarding clutchnet discs. Not fitting is sad though I have been thinking about buying a small spline 6 puck unsprung so I hope you work this out. The 4 puck small spline Clutchnet I have installed on my Spirit did go on, I don't remember if I had to motivate it onto the input shaft.

I like their discs, I have had bad luck with their Valeo brand red plates back from 2007-8. They were doing something wrong when modifying them and they were weaker then a stock t1/3.0 plate. I could tell simply by the lack of almost any pedal pressure.
Your plate looks very different. Back in 2008 the only option for plates they had was Valeo. Your plate looks very different.

These are pictures of a Clutchnet plate that did not have any clamping ability on a 3 puck disc, even after they sent a replacement. The nice thing about the design of this plate is that there is a post that prevents the straps from deflecting if you miss a shift. No need for a bunch of straps. Other plate is a SACHS original TIII plate modified to +40% clamping.
I have a feeling that an unmodified "weak" plate back in 2008 would have clamped harder.






--------------
Here is a Turbos Unleashed plate. Unmodified dual diaphragm. This plate does not have the support posts and I had to pay extra to have 4 straps installed. I will say that they were strong enough to pick up the rear of the car and not fail. Dual diaphragm causes the clutch adjuster to not work properly so no matter what, the clutch only disengages all the way at the floor. I have pondered making my own pedal adjuster because of how annoyed I am by the clutch engagement being at the floor. Causes me shifting problems sometimes when I am used to normal clutch disengagement on my Spirit.

[wallace]

They probably put the vw spline on your disc. Been there. Easiest to take it to a local shop and have them install the correct one. I sent 3 back before going the local route.

[Vigo]

Oil temperature is hotter than coolant temperature so the coolant doesn't need to get to the boiling point of water for the oil to reach that temp.

Also, as for boiling over after sitting, that happens because there are parts of the engine that are well above boiling temp and when the coolant stops flowing it heat soaks whatever coolant is sitting right next to it to the boiling point. Once that happens the force and bubbles go out the radiator overflow even though the coolant sitting in the radiator is not boiling or at the boiling temp.

I have wired in the $20-30 universal adjustable temp fan controllers in conjunction with stock wiring. You just wire the adjustable switch to trigger the factory relay setup, so that the fan can be triggered by EITHER the temp switch or the stock controls. This is the easiest way to go for AC cars because it keeps ac fan functionality. I wired an entire a/c circuit when i did the electric fan conversion on my dad's old dakota and it's a lot of extra work. Of course, none of this matters with megasquirt since you can just punch in a number to change fan behavior.

[c2xejk]

They probably put the vw spline on your disc. Been there.

How close is the VW spline to the Chrysler small spline? Is it something I can file on and get it to fit? Or are the differences more significant?

Easiest to take it to a local shop and have them install the correct one. I sent 3 back before going the local route.

I thought the splined hub was something they fabricated. How could I have it replaced locally?

Thanks
Ed

[wallace]

How close is the VW spline to the Chrysler small spline? Is it something I can file on and get it to fit? Or are the differences more significant?


I thought the splined hub was something they fabricated. How could I have it replaced locally?

Thanks
Ed

No the splined hub is just another component they use to assemble the disc. Any decent driveline shop should be able to swap it out. After the third wrong one that's what they suggested I do file down the hub so that it would slide on. The vw is just slightly different. That's what these clutch companies do assemble components they're just using off the shelf stuff MOST of the time.

[Reaper1]

Oil temperature is hotter than coolant temperature so the coolant doesn't need to get to the boiling point of water for the oil to reach that temp.

Also, as for boiling over after sitting, that happens because there are parts of the engine that are well above boiling temp and when the coolant stops flowing it heat soaks whatever coolant is sitting right next to it to the boiling point. Once that happens the force and bubbles go out the radiator overflow even though the coolant sitting in the radiator is not boiling or at the boiling temp.

I have wired in the $20-30 universal adjustable temp fan controllers in conjunction with stock wiring. You just wire the adjustable switch to trigger the factory relay setup, so that the fan can be triggered by EITHER the temp switch or the stock controls. This is the easiest way to go for AC cars because it keeps ac fan functionality. I wired an entire a/c circuit when i did the electric fan conversion on my dad's old dakota and it's a lot of extra work. Of course, none of this matters with megasquirt since you can just punch in a number to change fan behavior.

Also consider that the coolant system is pressurized, so the boiling point is higher. I'd have to do the math (or there might even be a table) to figure out what the boiling temperature is at the coolant system pressure. I think that's what..14psi, or is it 16? If it is 14, you could try getting a 16psi radiator cap to see if that might help. It's sort of a band-aid, but it might just be enough to prevent the problem from happening.

[Vigo]

Well, it's hard to get exact boiling temperatures since it depends on the boiling temp of the coolant, the condition of the coolant, the coolant/water ratio, etc. We can basically only ballpark.

High elevation provbably requires a slightly stronger cap to maintain the same pressure in the system. The cap is only rated for X psi "over ambient" and when ambient goes down (high elevation) the absolute pressure in the cooling system before the cap opens will go down as well. At least, that's how it seems in my head.

[Ondonti]

Well, it's hard to get exact boiling temperatures since it depends on the boiling temp of the coolant, the condition of the coolant, the coolant/water ratio, etc. We can basically only ballpark.

High elevation provbably requires a slightly stronger cap to maintain the same pressure in the system. The cap is only rated for X psi "over ambient" and when ambient goes down (high elevation) the absolute pressure in the cooling system before the cap opens will go down as well. At least, that's how it seems in my head.

100% water with no additives means a standard boiling point plus the radiator cap pressure. No radiator fan and driving around in a parking lot on a hot day will lead to uncontrolled temperatures. That means that your radiator temperature could be already to the point of popping the radiator cap up before shutting the car off. Turn the fan on for a bit before shutting the car down and you are fine.

Having automatic fan control really takes the fun out of overheating :P Still, I have had messed up radiator fan wires in the past that were patched together and would get pulled apart while working in the engine bay. With a loud engine its hard to tell if the automatic fan control is working since the RPM dip from the fan turning on could just be Megasquirt not doing its job well. Manual fan, you know when you turn the fan on that its turning on.

I think clutchnet should make things right. They get away with it and more people have problems. Customer service is always weird with them. BTW thinking back its possible I had to file down my solid hub 4 puck. I don't remember, I don't think I had time to do anything but make it work when I first installed it.