Cam Regrinds

[shayne]

the factory hydraulic roller (not slider type) rockers are effectively 1.6:1 ratio as i measure it to be.

[Sundance 6g72]

Guy at dsm graveyard got back to me in my thread to let me know he didnt get a chance to quote me yet but would like to know what grind im looking for. sense im not sure yet, what would you guys want a price on?

http://www.xceedspeed.com/forums/sho...=1#post4059976

post 95 is where he posted.

[Ondonti]

the factory hydraulic roller (not slider type) rockers are effectively 1.6:1 ratio as i measure it to be.

Yup. Force Fed measured 1.62 I measured 1.6. Hydraulic sliders are only 1.38 (or whatever I said in the valvetrain thread on BoostedMopar) but the cam also seems tiny but I didn't measure all its aspects. It is pointy, a very different looking profile.

I also don't know anyone running the Cam that Ed has from Crower and am not sure where that profile came from. Off the wall grinds might end up very bad.

Delta does weld cheap but I am scared of their ability to come up with a good profile.

That said, seems like a witch hunt on cams if nobody can be trusted. Cam people would not be in business if they could not do their job properly. Does that mean they are mistake free?

[MC#4]

Guy at dsm graveyard got back to me in my thread to let me know he didnt get a chance to quote me yet but would like to know what grind im looking for. sense im not sure yet, what would you guys want a price on?

http://www.xceedspeed.com/forums/sho...=1#post4059976

post 95 is where he posted.

I'll be watching to see what he says. Very interested to see what kind of turnaround time he can come up with.

[turbovanman²]

Ok, sorry took so long, got slammed at work. He now has another off the shelf grind, a stage 2 so to speak, a local used one and it would smoke the tires and rev easily but not recommended for a DD unless you don't care, the stage 1 is best for a turbo. The race needs longer valves or lash caps-.035", the stage 2 varies, some do, some don't.

Not sure about pricing from others but that's the best I can do.

I asked him about welding and said no, just too many issues can be had and it drives the price thru the roof, which most aren't willing to pay.

All readings at 1.6-
Stage 1 or RV 256 dur and .408" lift, $350 plus cores and shipping
Stage 2 270 dur and .429" lift, $375 as above-
Race 280 dur and .435" lift, $400 as above.

[MC#4]

Ok, sorry took so long, got slammed at work. He now has another off the shelf grind, a stage 2 so to speak, a local used one and it would smoke the tires and rev easily but not recommended for a DD unless you don't care, the stage 1 is best for a turbo. The race needs longer valves or lash caps-.035", the stage 2 varies, some do, some don't.

Not sure about pricing from others but that's the best I can do.

I asked him about welding and said no, just too many issues can be had and it drives the price thru the roof, which most aren't willing to pay.

All readings at 1.6-
Stage 1 or RV 256 dur and .408" lift, $350 plus cores and shipping
Stage 2 270 dur and .429" lift, $375 as above-
Race 280 dur and .435" lift, $400 as above.

Prices for a pair correct?
Any idea on turn around time?
Any idea on what kind of RPM range these will make power in?
Idle characteristics?

[Sundance 6g72]

Stage 1 or RV 256 dur and .408" lift sounds about right for me

would bumping the duration up but leaving the lift at .408 do anything significant? im new to this stuff

[Sundance 6g72]

The guy i talked to on my phone and on xceedspeed is a different guy than who sent me this email ( i emailed them last week)

Hey how are ya

I just looked into it, and it appears we can get them We would have to do your cams, since we don't have any cores. We outsource our cam grinding, since its become pretty complicated with the new style of cams.

When I checked, they said that your cams have a Hydraulic Intake, and a Solid Lifter Exhaust, which makes this process time consuming. They would run $749.95 plus a core to do the regrinds, but if you knew a manufacturer, we might be able to just get you new ones. They do need to be sized to the valve height as well.

Let me know, we will need around 2 weeks to get them done,

Thanks!

he must be high as ----. Were in the world did he get that our exhaust has solid lifters but the intake does not? And over $700 for regrinds.. 12 valves for crying out loud. RPW has them for $1000. The guy i talked to in my thread and on the phone seemed like he knew what he was talking about.. said that 4g63 16 valve cams go for around $250, and thats legit. Ill wait for him to respond with a price and ignore the email i got.

[turbovanman²]

Prices for a pair correct?
Any idea on turn around time?
Any idea on what kind of RPM range these will make power in?
Idle characteristics?

That is a pair, correct.

Idle is smooth for the stage 1, stage 2 and race are lumpy. He said the stage 1 will rev to 7K, the others same if not higher, so basically the stage 1 is a midrange and top end cam.

Turn out, probably a couple weeks, I might have cores or can get some so that speeds things up.

Stage 1 or RV 256 dur and .408" lift sounds about right for me

would bumping the duration up but leaving the lift at .408 do anything significant? im new to this stuff

I'll ask.

The guy i talked to on my phone and on xceedspeed is a different guy than who sent me this email ( i emailed them last week)



he must be high as ----. Were in the world did he get that our exhaust has solid lifters but the intake does not? And over $700 for regrinds.. 12 valves for crying out loud. RPW has them for $1000. The guy i talked to in my thread and on the phone seemed like he knew what he was talking about.. said that 4g63 16 valve cams go for around $250, and thats legit. Ill wait for him to respond with a price and ignore the email i got.

You can't compare a mass hotrodded engine to a V6 that no one really modify's, they sell 1000's of 4g63 cams to one set of V6 cams. Just like Mustangs, dime a dozen.

[Sundance 6g72]

Ever compared a 4g63 cam to 12valve cams? I remember them being similar

What gets me is the whole solid lifter part lol... What info did he find?

[turbovanman²]

Ever compared a 4g63 cam to 12valve cams? I remember them being similar

What gets me is the whole solid lifter part lol... What info did he find?

They maybe but you need to set up for different cams and if the grinder isn't set up, he will charge more to cover that.

Haven't called yet, will today.

[c2xejk]

turbovanman, what does your guy do with the lobe seperation angle (LSA) on the cams?

In stock form the front and rear cams have different LSA. With my current Crower cam I think they left the LSA the same and I can see the effect when testing the compression of the engine (10 psi difference between the banks.) I think I am also seeing a difference in the running engine with a fair amount of fluctuation in the A/F ratio. To get max performance out of the engine I would like to get commonize the cam profiles between banks...

Also worth noting, for my next cam I will likely be getting custom valve w/longer stems so that I can run a more heavily reground cam and possibly a cam with more lift. I will be looking for a race level cam... Needs be "streetable" enough to make the 1000 mile circuit for Drag Week... (lots of cars there that have very loppy cams!)

What is the duration @ 0.050" lift of these cams? Does he change the ramp rate of the cam? How much additional ramp does he think our hydraulic lifters take?

Thanks

[Mdoe8]

That's very bizarre about the LSA's. I wonder what they're reasoning behind this was?

[Shadow24]

IIRC split LSA was originally developed by Volvo to enable a motor like a v6 to have one bank have good low end power and one to have good upper end power. combine the two and you have a decent average power over a larger RPM range. This usually means drive-ability is greater for the average person.

turbovanman - do you think your cam guy's prices would change much for the SOHC 24v cams? (9 lobes per cam instead of 6) And does he have any good ideas on what the SOHC 24v cams can have done for a roots supercharged setup?

stock specs are:
4v/cyl
original base circle: 1.180
intake/ex Adv. duration 248
Intake/ex lift .270
center-line 106*/110* (split LSA)

[Mdoe8]

I suppose that kind of sort of makes sense on the split LSA....but a matching properly designed cam makes more sense

The motor, after all, DID have pretty good torque and a decent rpm range....albeit slow up top.

[Sundance 6g72]

24 valve guys blame the offset lsa on some of their engine failures.. but most of them didnt run intercoolers with their superchargers soooooooooooooooooo

[Shadow24]

24 valve guys blame the offset lsa on some of their engine failures.. but most of them didnt run intercoolers with their superchargers soooooooooooooooooo

In the 24v application, it is true that one bank runs quite differently than the other. Couple that wth a non-intercoold centrifugal supercharger and usually a poor fueling/management system is what i consider the main culprits. However, if you tune correctly and take the corrcect precautions, the motor will run fine. One example is a club3g member that ran 15 psi on a stock GT 24v with no issues.

[shayne]

the cams will have close (plus or minus a few degrees) to the same lsa as stock so the lobes will be different front and back heads (12valve).
shadow24, give turbovanman a pm about the 24valve cams and im sure he could find out, though the prices would be higher i assume because of twice as many cams to do.
as for offset cam lsa's the subject is kinda not spoken about much but is widely used in sohc and dohc v6's that dont use a variable cam timing system, but with a small displacement v6 like a 3.0l if you made cams that match front and rear then you do narrow the powerband to the type of grind you use in the motor, even when you cam a big nasty v8 you wind up moving around the powerband with cam change, but with them the torque loss from a hot cam isnt felt as badly because of the virtue of already being a much larger motor to begin with. the 3l's have a broad powerband stock because of the different cam lsa, and they only fall off on the top end because of lack of cam duration and intake tract that needs at least some basic clean up and porting to make flow well.

[turbovanman²]

turbovanman, what does your guy do with the lobe seperation angle (LSA) on the cams?

In stock form the front and rear cams have different LSA. With my current Crower cam I think they left the LSA the same and I can see the effect when testing the compression of the engine (10 psi difference between the banks.) I think I am also seeing a difference in the running engine with a fair amount of fluctuation in the A/F ratio. To get max performance out of the engine I would like to get commonize the cam profiles between banks...

Also worth noting, for my next cam I will likely be getting custom valve w/longer stems so that I can run a more heavily reground cam and possibly a cam with more lift. I will be looking for a race level cam... Needs be "streetable" enough to make the 1000 mile circuit for Drag Week... (lots of cars there that have very loppy cams!)

What is the duration @ 0.050" lift of these cams? Does he change the ramp rate of the cam? How much additional ramp does he think our hydraulic lifters take?

Thanks

Sorry, kinda wrapped up with work, I'll get an answer tomorrow.

IIRC split LSA was originally developed by Volvo to enable a motor like a v6 to have one bank have good low end power and one to have good upper end power. combine the two and you have a decent average power over a larger RPM range. This usually means drive-ability is greater for the average person.

turbovanman - do you think your cam guy's prices would change much for the SOHC 24v cams? (9 lobes per cam instead of 6) And does he have any good ideas on what the SOHC 24v cams can have done for a roots supercharged setup?

stock specs are:
4v/cyl
original base circle: 1.180
intake/ex Adv. duration 248
Intake/ex lift .270
center-line 106*/110* (split LSA)

See above, I"ll find out.

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------

the cams will have close (plus or minus a few degrees) to the same lsa as stock so the lobes will be different front and back heads (12valve).
shadow24, give turbovanman a pm about the 24valve cams and im sure he could find out, though the prices would be higher i assume because of twice as many cams to do.
as for offset cam lsa's the subject is kinda not spoken about much but is widely used in sohc and dohc v6's that dont use a variable cam timing system, but with a small displacement v6 like a 3.0l if you made cams that match front and rear then you do narrow the powerband to the type of grind you use in the motor, even when you cam a big nasty v8 you wind up moving around the powerband with cam change, but with them the torque loss from a hot cam isnt felt as badly because of the virtue of already being a much larger motor to begin with. the 3l's have a broad powerband stock because of the different cam lsa, and they only fall off on the top end because of lack of cam duration and intake tract that needs at least some basic clean up and porting to make flow well.

Mustang 2 and 4 valve engines are notorious for being out bank to bank and put them both to specs increases HP etc.

[shayne]

yes but the mustang motors are supposed to be aligned straight up, the mass production time limits dictate that they dont degree the motor the way an enthusiast would, mustangs' and other mod motor cams are identical lobe profiles from either bank, the 3.0l's and many other v6's have the actuall cam grind done at a different lsa to affect rpm breathing ability. i got an older copy of engine masters magazine that did a test with three different lsa cams in the same motor, iirc the first was 106 degrees, the next was 110, and the last was.. 114 i think.
it was cool to see what kinds of differences there were in power delivery and efficiency.