Auto trans: What do you guys do to your clutch's for extra discs?

[turbovanman²]

Jdizz and I started a discussion so might as well start a new thread.

For the forward clutch, I've tried Carls tricks, IE machining down parts to add another disc and always broke something so I just run the stock 4 discs, they wear faster but hold my heavy van.

The direct clutch or larger one that is on in 3rd gear, I tried Carls tricks again and kept breaking stuff, then someone told me to use A404 steels, which are thinner. I found using the stock A413 frictions, 4 A404 steels and one A413 steel with the forward clutch snap ring, gave the perfect .040-.050" clearance, but Jdizz doesn't like doing this, his own personal opinion.

So far, with all the VB mods, line pressure etc, they hold up very well, I've never had it slip, so what does everyone else do?

[JDIZZ]

Has anyone over powered the forward clutch? I never made enough power .
This clutch is not shifted under power, it has to hold power though. It is applied in all three forward gears. I think the weak link in the forward clutch is the teeth on the inside of the fiber disks or driving disks. I have disassembled many A413-A670's that were high in miles and in good shape but the forward clutch fiber's steel teeth were worn away greatly, close to failure. With enough power, I think one could rip the teeth off a new set of fiber disks.

I think the cheap and easy way around preventing such a failure would be to build the forward clutch pack with a few or more sets of two (2) fiber disks back to back, with the fiber surface on the inside (back to back) removed. So you end up with two fiber disks next to each other with their inner steel core touching each other. The two disk set will make one fiber disk with double the teeth.

I was going to try this on my next build, but that is not going to happen any time soon. And my last A413-A670 build was a while ago.

Any thoughts?

[shackwrrr]

This thread is a disappointment, I was thinking dual disc clutch.

[contraption22]

We've used the 404 steels in my trans with no problems at all.

[turbovanman²]

Has anyone over powered the forward clutch? I never made enough power .
This clutch is not shifted under power, it has to hold power though. It is applied in all three forward gears. I think the weak link in the forward clutch is the teeth on the inside of the fiber disks or driving disks. I have disassembled many A413-A670's that were high in miles and in good shape but the forward clutch fiber's steel teeth were worn away greatly, close to failure. With enough power, I think one could rip the teeth off a new set of fiber disks.

I think the cheap and easy way around preventing such a failure would be to build the forward clutch pack with a few or more sets of two (2) fiber disks back to back, with the fiber surface on the inside (back to back) removed. So you end up with two fiber disks next to each other with their inner steel core touching each other. The two disk set will make one fiber disk with double the teeth.

I was going to try this on my next build, but that is not going to happen any time soon. And my last A413-A670 build was a while ago.

Any thoughts?

I don't think you could run metal to metal for discs, they won't be able to hold and will slip, hence why when brakes wear to metal on metal, you get almost no stopping power and lots of metal bits.

Ohio Rob said he's sheered the teeth off the Alto 6 pack clutch's but that's moot point, can't get them anymore.

As for sheering teeth, I've never noticed any teeth wear.

This thread is a disappointment, I was thinking dual disc clutch.

How? The title says AUTOMATIC,

[zin]

I don't think you could run metal to metal for discs, they won't be able to hold and will slip, hence why when brakes wear to metal on metal, you get almost no stopping power and lots of metal bits.

What he's talking about is akin to fusing two fibers together, basically doubling the area of tooth engagement/thickness of the steel, but cutting the friction area by 1/2 (the two sides stripped of the friction material that touch).

While this would effectively make for a stronger friction plate, I wonder if the reduction in holding power (less friction surface) would shift the problem (if there is one) to slippage rather than "strippage"...

Mike

[135sohc]

What about removing the friction material off 1 disc so its a friction-steel bond, vs steel-steel bond ?

[turbo2point2]

For the forward clutch, I use 4 BW frictions and Kolene steels. Never had an issue, in fact its the same clutch pack for the last 2 years. As Joe said, the clutch is not shifted under power so it is much easier to maintain clamping force than to apply it under power. Direct clutch I am using 6 Alto red discs with the 404 steels, I mix and match with regular steels and retaining clips to get the desired clearance. This setup was good but I found the direct return spring unwinding at high rpm and burning the clutches up. I made a custom return spring that uses a series of small compression springs-that problem solved.

[JDIZZ]

What he's talking about is akin to fusing two fibers together, basically doubling the area of tooth engagement/thickness of the steel, but cutting the friction area by 1/2 (the two sides stripped of the friction material that touch).

While this would effectively make for a stronger friction plate, I wonder if the reduction in holding power (less friction surface) would shift the problem (if there is one) to slippage rather than "strippage"...

Mike

Correct.

The thought was a little difficult to put in words so I explained the "why" before the description to help the reader out in the direction I was headed.

I wonder if the reduction in holding power (less friction surface) would shift the problem (if there is one) to slippage rather than "strippage"...

My thought was to squeeze a few sets in there and end up with the same amount of friction area, not reduce it.

---------- Post added at 04:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

Thank you Brian and Mike. This is the input I was hoping for.

[zin]

What about removing the friction material off 1 disc so its a friction-steel bond, vs steel-steel bond ?

That would physically work, but since the frictions are keyed/splined opposite of the steels (inside vs out), it would not provide any additional holding power, but would take up room in the friction/steel "stack"

Mike

---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

This setup was good but I found the direct return spring unwinding at high rpm and burning the clutches up. I made a custom return spring that uses a series of small compression springs-that problem solved.

Sure would be nice to see a picture of what you're describing here, I'm not quite picturing it...

Mike

[contraption22]

How? The title says AUTOMATIC,

It didn't until I fixed it.

[RoadWarrior222]

Good stuffs, subscribed!

[turbovanman²]

What he's talking about is akin to fusing two fibers together, basically doubling the area of tooth engagement/thickness of the steel, but cutting the friction area by 1/2 (the two sides stripped of the friction material that touch).

While this would effectively make for a stronger friction plate, I wonder if the reduction in holding power (less friction surface) would shift the problem (if there is one) to slippage rather than "strippage"...

Mike

But 2 metal discs together won't bite and will slip, which is basically what he's trying to do by removing the friction material from one side.

---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

For the forward clutch, I use 4 BW frictions and Kolene steels. Never had an issue, in fact its the same clutch pack for the last 2 years. As Joe said, the clutch is not shifted under power so it is much easier to maintain clamping force than to apply it under power. Direct clutch I am using 6 Alto red discs with the 404 steels, I mix and match with regular steels and retaining clips to get the desired clearance. This setup was good but I found the direct return spring unwinding at high rpm and burning the clutches up. I made a custom return spring that uses a series of small compression springs-that problem solved.

Very interesting. Where do you get the Alto's, I've tried but no longer available, so I am told.

It didn't until I fixed it.

LOL.

[JDIZZ]

But 2 metal discs together won't bite and will slip, which is basically what he's trying to do by removing the friction material from one side.

No, re read my post. I am suggesting using two fiber disks placed together to make ONE driven disk with double the teeth. To save space, remove the fiber from each side of each disk that touch each other.

[JDIZZ]

That would physically work, but since the frictions are keyed/splined opposite of the steels (inside vs out), it would not provide any additional holding power, but would take up room in the friction/steel "stack"

Mike

---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------



Sure would be nice to see a picture of what you're describing here, I'm not quite picturing it...

Mike

I think this may be what Brian is writing about. From a GM trans.

[turbovanman²]

No, re read my post. I am suggesting using two fiber disks placed together to make ONE driven disk with double the teeth. To save space, remove the fiber from each side of each disk that touch each other.

Ok, gotcha. Figuring out how to bond them would be tough, lol, and wouldn't that be worse? Your loosing 2 friction sides, kinda like removing a clutch disc?

[RoadWarrior222]

JB Weld lived for a year or so in my tranny ....

Well technically it still lives, it wasn't that part that failed next.

[5DIGITS]

No, re read my post. I am suggesting using two fiber disks placed together to make ONE driven disk with double the teeth. To save space, remove the fiber from each side of each disk that touch each other.

I originally thought you were trying to generate what is known as 'single sided clutch disk'.
But after your reading your post again it sounds like you are going in another direction.

Thanks

[turbo2point2]

Very interesting. Where do you get the Alto's, I've tried but no longer available, so I am told.

I stock them. Last I checked, I had about 75 on hand.

I think this may be what Brian is writing about. From a GM trans.

It does look pretty similar to that Joe. I'll grab some pics of it.

[JDIZZ]

I originally thought you were trying to generate what is known as 'single sided clutch disk'.
But after your reading your post again it sounds like you are going in another direction.

Thanks

Correct, placed together back to back to create one driven disk with double the teeth.