I just took apart my first A413; problem found?

[fastasleep]

On the end of the input shaft (the end oposite the end that would enter the torque converter) there is a splined end that has only about half of the teeth left on it. What problems could this cause me? Here is the scenario: I don't remember what was wrong with this trans. and was trying to figure out my symptoms by looking at physical damage that I find during the tear-down. This is the only thing I have found so far; even the diff was all good. This is the trans. I took out when it failed to put in another functional one, but now the diff is messed up in that one and I have to build a functional one out of what I have.
BTW, how the hell do I put the overrun springs and rollers back in?

-Les

[turbovanman²]

Pics, pics and more pics.

How do you put them back in, patience and grease. Put the housing back in without the rollers, try to put the band back in, where it hits, grind it just enough so you can put the band in last, otherwise you'll beat yourself senseless to trying to put it together with the band in first.

For the springs and rollers, use vaseline or the proper assembly lube, it will dissolve with the heat, DO NOT use wheel bearing or chassis grease, after you install them, install the sprag housing turning it the direction that it pushes the rollers so they don't lock, can't remember, then you can install the band and off you go.

[fastasleep]

It is right where the input shaft goes through the Rear (forward) clutch housing. You can see the missing teeth here. What do these teeth engage? Also, you can see the "blueing" here. I believe this is where the #3 thrust washer resides, between the input shaft and output shaft. That thrust washer is brass (?) and has some significant wear rings into it. what does this signify?

-Les

[JDIZZ]

On the end of the input shaft (the end oposite the end that would enter the torque converter) there is a splined end that has only about half of the teeth left on it. What problems could this cause me? Here is the scenario: I don't remember what was wrong with this trans. and was trying to figure out my symptoms by looking at physical damage that I find during the tear-down. This is the only thing I have found so far; even the diff was all good. This is the trans. I took out when it failed to put in another functional one, but now the diff is messed up in that one and I have to build a functional one out of what I have.
BTW, how the hell do I put the overrun springs and rollers back in?

-Les

BTW, how the hell do I put the overrun springs and rollers back in?

The easy way:
If you have an old/no good case, beat the overrunning clutch inner race out of it and assemble the overrunning clutch on it upside down. Then, while holding the overrunning clutch assembly up to the inner race in the trans. Slide the overrunning clutch while rotating it onto the inner race in the trans.

Again, you are assembling the overrunning clutch upside down on the inner race removed from another trans. Lining the newly assembled overrunning clutch inner race to inner race on your new trans. Then sliding while rotating the overrunning clutch assembly onto the new trans inner race.

The roller and spring kit is very cheap in price. Don't forget to replace it with new.
Check the inner race inside the trans. If it is a little banged up from the rollers, dress it up with 400 wet and dry paper.

[fastasleep]

I absolutey will, Joe! Thanks for the input! Did you see the pic I posted? Is this anything to be concerned with? I am searching for the thread I saw about replacing this input shaft with one from a 904.... One question: the terminology people use has me confused a little. In the ATSG manual calls the clutch packs (in order of removal) the front (direct) clutch and behind that the rear (forward) clutch. In threads here, they are commonly referred to as the big and little clutches. I assume the big one is the front (direct) clutch and the little one is the rear (forward) clutch, correct? Also, the basket to stack 5 frictions and steels is the front (direct) clutch? I am slowly reading through all the build-up information I can find and putting all the parts I need into a shopping cart from bulkparts. I did notice, though, that bulkparts doesn't offer any Sonax parts for this trans. What are the essentials to upgrade?
Simon will probably jump in here and get me straight like he usually does, but thought I'd throw these questions out while I am thinking about them. Thanks again for all of the input and help!

-Les

[turbovanman²]

For your power level, you don't need to change the input shaft. Remove the circlip and remove it, if the teeth are missing that engages the housing, get a new one, if the teeth are ok, then reuse.

For the clutch's, the big one, take out the wave ring and I use 4 A404 steels and one A413 steel, the A413 frictions and the little clutch snap ring, so you'll need another one. The small clutch, I forget, lol, but I'll check my PM's in a bit as you quoted me.

You need the Sonnax HD band strut for the rear band, that's it for Sonnax stuff, then a rebuild kit, valve body mods, inline magnet oil filter.

Weld up the planetary's, I can get you the 5 pinion one and I can get you a modified rear planetary carrier that uses a bearing.

[fastasleep]

Sweet. I sent you a PM. I guess I need to get a converter ordered so all this stuff can be available when I get the trans done!

-Les

[turbovanman²]

If your doing alot of highway driving, and you care about MPG, you might want to consider adding LU. For me, I honestly haven't noticed any MPG gain but the rpm drop is nice for hwy cruising.

[fastasleep]

What all does that Involve? Different input shaft, VB with a LU solenoid and a switch?

-Les

[turbovanman²]

What all does that Involve? Different input shaft, VB with a LU solenoid and a switch?

-Les

Input shaft, matching TC, add a solenoid and valve to the VB, drill the hole in the case, then either recal your computer for it or use a toggle switch-that's what I use for now.

[JDIZZ]

I absolutey will, Joe! Thanks for the input! Did you see the pic I posted? Is this anything to be concerned with? I am searching for the thread I saw about replacing this input shaft with one from a 904.... One question: the terminology people use has me confused a little. In the ATSG manual calls the clutch packs (in order of removal) the front (direct) clutch and behind that the rear (forward) clutch. In threads here, they are commonly referred to as the big and little clutches. I assume the big one is the front (direct) clutch and the little one is the rear (forward) clutch, correct? Also, the basket to stack 5 frictions and steels is the front (direct) clutch? I am slowly reading through all the build-up information I can find and putting all the parts I need into a shopping cart from bulkparts. I did notice, though, that bulkparts doesn't offer any Sonax parts for this trans. What are the essentials to upgrade?
Simon will probably jump in here and get me straight like he usually does, but thought I'd throw these questions out while I am thinking about them. Thanks again for all of the input and help!

-Les

I do not know what caused the missing teeth. I would not re-use it behind a healthy turbo motor though. I am thinking along the lines it was assembled that way. Did you find the teeth in the pan?

In the ATSG manual calls the clutch packs (in order of removal) the front (direct) clutch and behind that the rear (forward) clutch. In threads here, they are commonly referred to as the big and little clutches. I assume the big one is the front (direct) clutch and the little one is the rear (forward) clutch, correct?

Correct: Front clutch, because it is the first one or in the front, also called the direct clutch because when engaged, the transmission is in direct drive, 1 to 1, no gear reduction. Rear clutch, because it is in the back or rear of the transmission. Also called forward clutch because it is engaged in all three forward gears. This clutch is shifted when you move the shift leaver to drive (D,2,1).
I don't think I ever call them big and little. It could be they don't know the proper name for them. Like me, I call the direct clutch third gear clutch.

The forward clutch fibers and steels are smaller than the direct clutch fibers and steels.

Also, the basket to stack 5 frictions and steels is the front (direct) clutch?

Yes, this clutch is engaged upon shifting into high (3rd) gear and is set sloppy (loose) from the factory. Set it around .009 to .010" per clutch (in the "basket"). This keeps third gear flair down and helps to reduce the pack from burning. I am not a fan of the A404 thinner steels in this clutch as Chrysler made the steels thicker for the higher horse power engines. The thicker steels absorb the heat of the shift. And I would definitely not use the thinner steels in the #1 and #2 spot counting from the pressure plate/clutch piston. As the clutch piston applies, the first two fiber/steels take a beating and do most of the work.

Hope this helps.

[Aerosmith145]

This makes me want to take apart my 413. What harm will another iron do?

Thanks Les.. lol

[turbovanman²]

Yes, this clutch is engaged upon shifting into high (3rd) gear and is set sloppy (loose) from the factory. Set it around .009 to .010" per clutch (in the "basket"). This keeps third gear flair down and helps to reduce the pack from burning. I am not a fan of the A404 thinner steels in this clutch as Chrysler made the steels thicker for the higher horse power engines. The thicker steels absorb the heat of the shift. And I would definitely not use the thinner steels in the #1 and #2 spot counting from the pressure plate/clutch piston. As the clutch piston applies, the first two fiber/steels take a beating and do most of the work.

Hope this helps.

What do you recommend? In 8 years of beating on this, never had an issue burning up clutch's etc in that drum,

[JDIZZ]

What do you recommend? In 8 years of beating on this, never had an issue burning up clutch's etc in that drum,

If your setup is working for you, don't stop.

This is just MY opinion.
The most important part of this clutch is the proper clearance.
I don't like the thinner steels for the reason listed above. If I was to build one today and had to have an extra clutch. I would not gain the extra clearance by using thinner steels in the first two spots near the apply piston (three spots if I was able to find the extra clearance elsewhere). I would go the hard way. Like surface grinding the last thick steel some and if I had to, moving the snap ring groove up .020" or so.
I like the idea of an extra clutch, i don't like the idea of thinner steels.


Maybe it's the tractor fluid?

Simon, any ideas on the forward clutch? Maybe we should start a new thread on this question.

[turbovanman²]

If your setup is working for you, don't stop.

This is just MY opinion.
The most important part of this clutch is the proper clearance.
I don't like the thinner steels for the reason listed above. If I was to build one today and had to have an extra clutch. I would not gain the extra clearance by using thinner steels in the first two spots near the apply piston (three spots if I was able to find the extra clearance elsewhere). I would go the hard way. Like surface grinding the last thick steel some and if I had to, moving the snap ring groove up .020" or so.
I like the idea of an extra clutch, i don't like the idea of thinner steels.


Maybe it's the tractor fluid?

Simon, any ideas on the forward clutch? Maybe we should start a new thread on this question.

I am not putting you down so to speak, hard to convey over the net, just curious as to what you suggest or do.

I tried using thicker pistons, pressure plates etc and broke every one of them, so I gave up and switched to the 404's and like I've said, never had an issue since.

For the forward clutch, again, tried Carl's tricks and they never held up, always broke or cracked something so I think for that, it would have to be new drum or some other method, maybe I'll dig into some more.

Just started using TDH so it can't be that,

Done, a new thread-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...075#post872075

[JDIZZ]

I absolutey will, Joe! Thanks for the input! Did you see the pic I posted? Is this anything to be concerned with? I am searching for the thread I saw about replacing this input shaft with one from a 904.... One question: the terminology people use has me confused a little. In the ATSG manual calls the clutch packs (in order of removal) the front (direct) clutch and behind that the rear (forward) clutch. In threads here, they are commonly referred to as the big and little clutches. I assume the big one is the front (direct) clutch and the little one is the rear (forward) clutch, correct? Also, the basket to stack 5 frictions and steels is the front (direct) clutch? I am slowly reading through all the build-up information I can find and putting all the parts I need into a shopping cart from bulkparts. I did notice, though, that bulkparts doesn't offer any Sonax parts for this trans. What are the essentials to upgrade?
Simon will probably jump in here and get me straight like he usually does, but thought I'd throw these questions out while I am thinking about them. Thanks again for all of the input and help!

-Les

I did notice, though, that bulkparts doesn't offer any Sonax parts for this trans.

Band STRUT, 404 series, Rear band apply strut, 2 3/16 inch long

http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/me...ry_Code=A404hp

[pauly_no_van]

For the springs and rollers, use vaseline or the proper assembly lube, it will dissolve with the heat, DO NOT use wheel bearing or chassis grease,

What happens if one uses wheel bearing grease?
Also,
If i took out my drums and saw that shaft like that I'd replace whole trans period.
That was due to a serious end-play issue and the planetary gears/races/case might be buggered...
/.o2
paul

[135sohc]

Thick heavy wheel/chassis grease wont melt and flow like vaseline or assembly lube made for transmissions. Does not take much to clog an oil passage or valve body
I have used wheel grease applied w/flux brush on 5 speeds before in a pinch and even a few thousand miles later the stuff was still there. Does not melt down and blend into the oil.

[turbovanman²]

What he said.

[pauly_no_van]

good to know as i have used it before....