lengel's TIII Omni GLH progress (used to be spirit r/t)

[HSKR]

You would have to design something that doesn't interfere with normal operation off the clutch once moving though. You wouldn't want to slow the release of the clutch on the 1-2, or 2-3 shift. Also it would have to adjust as the clutch wears out and the actual release point changes.

[Shadow]

I do feel that the main variable here is the driver as to why some have good luck with axles and some dont. Seem like you have your launch dialed in and are consistent with it, I on the other hand am not. May be its just going to take more seat time to get myself consistent, or maybe its going to take a 300m axle end! One way or another ill get there.

I would think, if you are only Sheering axles, that you can safely say that your P/T is "Happy" where it is and your axle angularity is "Good". On the other hand, IF you were destroying joints, I would suspect that you are wheel hoping OR your P/T and/ or axle angularity are NOT "Happy". (or you were using worn out axles)

So, once you are down to Shearing axles, I would agree that axle life becomes driver related more than anything else, but we Are reaching a level where we may just see this happening more often because of the shear load. (lol)

Now, don't kid yourself Bro, you have done extremely well in your progression as a "Driver" and will only get Better with more seat time! Remember, I had 10 years of driving behind me before I was able to lay down what you have already done with Your Beast!

So before we throw a big wrench into things with all of this lacking of confidence, I would say Trust yourself a little and it just Might go a Long way!

[Ondonti]

You would have to design something that doesn't interfere with normal operation off the clutch once moving though. You wouldn't want to slow the release of the clutch on the 1-2, or 2-3 shift. Also it would have to adjust as the clutch wears out and the actual release point changes.

Well what I read from the mustang site was the person wanted to smooth engagement in all gears to protect the transmission. We have known issues with that and I would bet engagement is involved, not just acceleration.

I do think a push pin kinda deal would make it easy to remove for being away from the track.

I also think it would be a real compliment to the designer if it was actually sensitive enough to get out of adjustment with wear. Most of these clutches will wear very little. I don't see potential small changes as a bad thing. I see people wanting to change settings depending on conditions etc. I would gladly take a junky mod over my OEM leg. People take a lot of important medications even though there are side effects.

[Vigo]

You would have to design something that doesn't interfere with normal operation off the clutch once moving though. You wouldn't want to slow the release of the clutch on the 1-2, or 2-3 shift. Also it would have to adjust as the clutch wears out and the actual release point changes.

Well, if it were an electrically controlled PWM solenoid system you could easily make it only work on the launch.

As for having to adjust for clutch wear, the system I described wouldn't need to change at all unless you had it hitting the stops of the cylinder in one direction when you first installed it.

[HSKR]

I guess it all depends on how much it "slows down" the clutch engagement. It's probably not going to be as slow as I was initially thinking. And just more of an even pedal release than a sudden jerk.

[Vigo]

Yeah, that's what i'm thinking. And really, once all the slack is out of the driveline and it's 'loaded' i dont really think it matters how fast you let the clutch out after that unless you are slipping it to avoid a bog or something like that. The main tip i've been given (and used a little though my slicks have very few runs on them) is to slowly let out the clutch until you feel the car start to move, then dump it.

[Ondonti]

Yeah, that's what i'm thinking. And really, once all the slack is out of the driveline and it's 'loaded' i dont really think it matters how fast you let the clutch out after that unless you are slipping it to avoid a bog or something like that. The main tip i've been given (and used a little though my slicks have very few runs on them) is to slowly let out the clutch until you feel the car start to move, then dump it.

That still probably puts a huge strain on parts but much less than when there is slack.

[minigts]

Here is the shot of his car from Cecil last weekend.

[lengel]

Thanks for all the ideas and input guys!

I'm pretty swamped for the next few weeks but after I might be able to do an analysis on the spline and maybe come up with an optimal back cut to relieve stress risers. I also believe driving style has allot to do with it. After I broke my one and only axle I changed my clutch release technique to use my whole thigh instead of my foot/shin. I try to lift my whole leg off the clutch by pulling my knee towards my shoulder. This makes you move more body parts and slows down the release. I don't know, worked for me. That being said I have no faith in myself so there will be some automated clutch release doo-dads on my phase 2 build.

Thanks for the input DJ. I do like the idea of something to control the clutch release . Analysis of the splines would be a big help! Let me know when you have time I would like to run some ideas by you.

I know auto is way better for racing, and stronger, but they are so....boring.

Yeah Im with you on that one!

I would think, if you are only Sheering axles, that you can safely say that your P/T is "Happy" where it is and your axle angularity is "Good". On the other hand, IF you were destroying joints, I would suspect that you are wheel hoping OR your P/T and/ or axle angularity are NOT "Happy". (or you were using worn out axles)

So, once you are down to Shearing axles, I would agree that axle life becomes driver related more than anything else, but we Are reaching a level where we may just see this happening more often because of the shear load. (lol)

Now, don't kid yourself Bro, you have done extremely well in your progression as a "Driver" and will only get Better with more seat time! Remember, I had 10 years of driving behind me before I was able to lay down what you have already done with Your Beast!

So before we throw a big wrench into things with all of this lacking of confidence, I would say Trust yourself a little and it just Might go a Long way!

Thanks man! Yeah I don't want to jump the gun on just one broken axle. so I will be putting another in and going back at it! If I start breaking them a lot I will be looking into my options.

Here is the shot of his car from Cecil last weekend.

Thanks for the Pic Jon. It's was a fun day hanging out with everyone!

[BadAssPerformance]

Not much luck at Cecil yesterday. It was so cold, the track was like a ice skating rink. First pass spun BAD! Had 2.2 60' and a high 11. At this point I was just going to hang out and bag the racing for the day. 2hours later decided to make a 2nd pass. Set the boost down to 19 and it went a 11.14 at 127 with a 1.9 60'. 3rd pass set up the time based boost to try and get some traction, and ended snapping a axle. Luckily I had my get me home axles with and a bunch of TM guys willing to help me get fixed up to make the 2 hour drive home.

Thanks guys!!!!!!

Adam

Nice work, glad you had the "get me home axles"!

Seeing that it is a passenger side axle... In all of my axle breakages with 26" tire, the overwhelming majority were the passenger side inner right where yours broke. With unequal length axles the tail-shaft housing of the trans is the support for the axle and its somewhat sloppy so if you get any twist in the joint (the joint has play in it by design) I think it puts some slight bending into the shaft to help the end break. The early trans' actually had a bronze bearing there and the later ones just use the aluminum. Its loose because there is oil slosh only to lube it so cant go tight like rod bearings... I think a redesign with an actual roller or ball bearing would help a ton.

The weak link in the passenger side with equal lengths is the half shaft/u-joint, so if you make a custom shaft and eliminate the joint like Shadow did I could see it being much better for durability. I thought for 2 seconds about doing this until I realized the 2.4L block is different so I'd need to fab a bracket bearing, etc that I unfortunately don't have free time for these days So instead I went back to the smaller tires and let the clutch take the abuse on the launch. I've only broke one axle since on the smaller tire and it was in the DS inner joint and not the spline and I'm guessing that axle had several 26" tire hits on it. I'm interested in seeing the axles that are in it now to see if the splines are straight or not, but I'm guessing they are OK. they will need to come out cuz the clutch probably needs a rebuild now LOL

Before the DSS axles I broke a stock axle end off on a 24.5" tire and only DSS axle spline ends on 26" tires. I actually made just over 200 passes on the first set of DSS axles before one broke (on the 26's). The DSS axles and there are some differences. The stock axles look like case hardened and the DSS are thru hardened and I've tried a couple different heat treatments with them to reduce brittleness. Some that I've broken there were actually in the major diameter just outside the splines. This tells me another issue is we are limited on shaft diameter...

Leaving soft helps. I could never leave soft enough with the 26's but maybe part of that was the twin disk on/off switch. Also, when the axles didn't break the trans definitely took the abuse. I've broken several bearing end plates and two ring/pinions in the past 2 years. .. DJ, hurry up and figure out launch control and T850 dog box

Oh, and If there are enough that want DSS axles, I'm down to organize a group buy shouldn't need too many sets to get a discount.

[Ondonti]

Nice work, glad you had the "get me home axles"!

Seeing that it is a passenger side axle... In all of my axle breakages with 26" tire, the overwhelming majority were the passenger side inner right where yours broke. With unequal length axles the tail-shaft housing of the trans is the support for the axle and its somewhat sloppy so if you get any twist in the joint (the joint has play in it by design) I think it puts some slight bending into the shaft to help the end break. The early trans' actually had a bronze bearing there and the later ones just use the aluminum. Its loose because there is oil slosh only to lube it so cant go tight like rod bearings... I think a redesign with an actual roller or ball bearing would help a ton.

The weak link in the passenger side with equal lengths is the half shaft/u-joint, so if you make a custom shaft and eliminate the joint like Shadow did I could see it being much better for durability. I thought for 2 seconds about doing this until I realized the 2.4L block is different so I'd need to fab a bracket bearing, etc that I unfortunately don't have free time for these days So instead I went back to the smaller tires and let the clutch take the abuse on the launch. I've only broke one axle since on the smaller tire and it was in the DS inner joint and not the spline and I'm guessing that axle had several 26" tire hits on it. I'm interested in seeing the axles that are in it now to see if the splines are straight or not, but I'm guessing they are OK. they will need to come out cuz the clutch probably needs a rebuild now LOL

Before the DSS axles I broke a stock axle end off on a 24.5" tire and only DSS axle spline ends on 26" tires. I actually made just over 200 passes on the first set of DSS axles before one broke (on the 26's). The DSS axles and there are some differences. The stock axles look like case hardened and the DSS are thru hardened and I've tried a couple different heat treatments with them to reduce brittleness. Some that I've broken there were actually in the major diameter just outside the splines. This tells me another issue is we are limited on shaft diameter...

Leaving soft helps. I could never leave soft enough with the 26's but maybe part of that was the twin disk on/off switch. Also, when the axles didn't break the trans definitely took the abuse. I've broken several bearing end plates and two ring/pinions in the past 2 years. .. DJ, hurry up and figure out launch control and T850 dog box

Oh, and If there are enough that want DSS axles, I'm down to organize a group buy shouldn't need too many sets to get a discount.

I remember reading vague bad things about the axle seals that have roller bearings in them? What exactly can be so bad about them? They fail after 50k miles? I wouldn't care if they failed in 10k miles.

[Shadow]

Nice work, glad you had the "get me home axles"!

Seeing that it is a passenger side axle... In all of my axle breakages with 26" tire, the overwhelming majority were the passenger side inner right where yours broke. With unequal length axles the tail-shaft housing of the trans is the support for the axle and its somewhat sloppy so if you get any twist in the joint (the joint has play in it by design) I think it puts some slight bending into the shaft to help the end break. The early trans' actually had a bronze bearing there and the later ones just use the aluminum. Its loose because there is oil slosh only to lube it so cant go tight like rod bearings... I think a redesign with an actual roller or ball bearing would help a ton.

The weak link in the passenger side with equal lengths is the half shaft/u-joint, so if you make a custom shaft and eliminate the joint like Shadow did I could see it being much better for durability. I thought for 2 seconds about doing this until I realized the 2.4L block is different so I'd need to fab a bracket bearing, etc that I unfortunately don't have free time for these days So instead I went back to the smaller tires and let the clutch take the abuse on the launch. I've only broke one axle since on the smaller tire and it was in the DS inner joint and not the spline and I'm guessing that axle had several 26" tire hits on it. I'm interested in seeing the axles that are in it now to see if the splines are straight or not, but I'm guessing they are OK. they will need to come out cuz the clutch probably needs a rebuild now LOL

Before the DSS axles I broke a stock axle end off on a 24.5" tire and only DSS axle spline ends on 26" tires. I actually made just over 200 passes on the first set of DSS axles before one broke (on the 26's). The DSS axles and there are some differences. The stock axles look like case hardened and the DSS are thru hardened and I've tried a couple different heat treatments with them to reduce brittleness. Some that I've broken there were actually in the major diameter just outside the splines. This tells me another issue is we are limited on shaft diameter...

Leaving soft helps. I could never leave soft enough with the 26's but maybe part of that was the twin disk on/off switch. Also, when the axles didn't break the trans definitely took the abuse. I've broken several bearing end plates and two ring/pinions in the past 2 years. .. DJ, hurry up and figure out launch control and T850 dog box

Oh, and If there are enough that want DSS axles, I'm down to organize a group buy shouldn't need too many sets to get a discount.

Funny, the things we forget as the years go by. Before I read this, I had forgotten about that solid shaft! (when considering axle breakage)

So, interestingly enough, the Only axle I have broken since that Solid halfshaft went is was on the Drivers side. (sheared it off at the splines)

Before that (and what prompted me to make the solid shaft) I destroyed a Solid U-joint and it put a hairline crack in the Pass side trans extension housing.

[turbovanman²]

I know, going way out, but what about a new spider gears with stronger spline count or not sure if its stronger, like someone made with our transfer gears, just 5 big teeth and new matching cv ends?

[lengel]

Nice work, glad you had the "get me home axles"!

Seeing that it is a passenger side axle... In all of my axle breakages with 26" tire, the overwhelming majority were the passenger side inner right where yours broke. With unequal length axles the tail-shaft housing of the trans is the support for the axle and its somewhat sloppy so if you get any twist in the joint (the joint has play in it by design) I think it puts some slight bending into the shaft to help the end break. The early trans' actually had a bronze bearing there and the later ones just use the aluminum. Its loose because there is oil slosh only to lube it so cant go tight like rod bearings... I think a redesign with an actual roller or ball bearing would help a ton.

The weak link in the passenger side with equal lengths is the half shaft/u-joint, so if you make a custom shaft and eliminate the joint like Shadow did I could see it being much better for durability. I thought for 2 seconds about doing this until I realized the 2.4L block is different so I'd need to fab a bracket bearing, etc that I unfortunately don't have free time for these days So instead I went back to the smaller tires and let the clutch take the abuse on the launch. I've only broke one axle since on the smaller tire and it was in the DS inner joint and not the spline and I'm guessing that axle had several 26" tire hits on it. I'm interested in seeing the axles that are in it now to see if the splines are straight or not, but I'm guessing they are OK. they will need to come out cuz the clutch probably needs a rebuild now LOL

Before the DSS axles I broke a stock axle end off on a 24.5" tire and only DSS axle spline ends on 26" tires. I actually made just over 200 passes on the first set of DSS axles before one broke (on the 26's). The DSS axles and there are some differences. The stock axles look like case hardened and the DSS are thru hardened and I've tried a couple different heat treatments with them to reduce brittleness. Some that I've broken there were actually in the major diameter just outside the splines. This tells me another issue is we are limited on shaft diameter...

Leaving soft helps. I could never leave soft enough with the 26's but maybe part of that was the twin disk on/off switch. Also, when the axles didn't break the trans definitely took the abuse. I've broken several bearing end plates and two ring/pinions in the past 2 years. .. DJ, hurry up and figure out launch control and T850 dog box

Oh, and If there are enough that want DSS axles, I'm down to organize a group buy shouldn't need too many sets to get a discount.

Thanks for sharing JT! I may look into doing some sort of solid half shaft like rob did?

Funny, the things we forget as the years go by. Before I read this, I had forgotten about that solid shaft! (when considering axle breakage)

So, interestingly enough, the Only axle I have broken since that Solid halfshaft went is was on the Drivers side. (sheared it off at the splines)

Before that (and what prompted me to make the solid shaft) I destroyed a Solid U-joint and it put a hairline crack in the Pass side trans extension housing.

Good to know. Do you have any pics of your solid half shaft set up? How exactly was the U joint removed?

I know, going way out, but what about a new spider gears with stronger spline count or not sure if its stronger, like someone made with our transfer gears, just 5 big teeth and new matching cv ends?

What I have been looking into, is if a SRT4 quaife could be modified to fit in a a568 since they use a bigger diameter axle. Anybody have one i could barrow to see if it possible?

[Reaper1]

What about a custom solution that ends up using Porsche type joints on the transmission side of the axle? They bolt on to flanges. I've brought that idea up before I think in JT's thread. If you are talking about making custom spider gears, etc....why not look into this?

[Shadow]

Good to know. Do you have any pics of your solid half shaft set up? How exactly was the U joint removed?

All I did was cut off the yoke end and machine it down in a lathe to get a nice press fit on a Longer piece of tubing than the factory piece. I cut the existing tubing off the axle end and pressed it together, spun it on the lathe to make sure it looked true, welded it up and the rest is History!

This is the only pic I took of it AFAIK.

[moparzrule]

Why was there ever a U-joint there to begin with? Seems like a dumb idea right out of the gate lol. I always run unequal axles for that reason, but only having to bring the 1 equal length axle as a spare instead of both would be nice.

[BadAssPerformance]

I remember reading vague bad things about the axle seals that have roller bearings in them? What exactly can be so bad about them? They fail after 50k miles? I wouldn't care if they failed in 10k miles.

I'm not sure the seals bearings would do it... need something pretty strong

I know, going way out, but what about a new spider gears with stronger spline count or not sure if its stronger, like someone made with our transfer gears, just 5 big teeth and new matching cv ends?

Its not the spline could, I've snapped them in the main diameter outside the splines. The shaft diameter is the limit so need larger bearings seals, etc.

Thanks for sharing JT! I may look into doing some sort of solid half shaft like rob did?

Anytime man!

What I have been looking into, is if a SRT4 quaife could be modified to fit in a a568 since they use a bigger diameter axle. Anybody have one i could barrow to see if it possible?

DJ checked it and it is far from drop-in, a major tear-up. I think he's posted pics in both his thread and mine LOL

What about a custom solution that ends up using Porsche type joints on the transmission side of the axle? They bolt on to flanges. I've brought that idea up before I think in JT's thread. If you are talking about making custom spider gears, etc....why not look into this?

I remember you bringing this up and in addition to custom diff mods, I think the hard part would be the mods to the case.

Why was there ever a U-joint there to begin with? Seems like a dumb idea right out of the gate lol. I always run unequal axles for that reason, but only having to bring the 1 equal length axle as a spare instead of both would be nice.

AFAIK the u-joint was a product of early 80's build quality and not thinking that the axle bearing mount bracket would be able to consistently (car to car) align the shaft to the trans. A lot of tolerance stack up between the bearing bolting to the casting bolted to the block bolting to the trans with several cavities to cast the bracket and a few for the trans cases, etc... Add a u-joint and no worries about destroying a diff or bearings due to off axis alignment or potential bearing noise. And a u-joint sized for a 1/2 ton pickup surely would handle 146hp, 175hp or even 224hp...

[Ondonti]

What I have been looking into, is if a SRT4 quaife could be modified to fit in a a568 since they use a bigger diameter axle. Anybody have one i could barrow to see if it possible?

What about a custom solution that ends up using Porsche type joints on the transmission side of the axle? They bolt on to flanges. I've brought that idea up before I think in JT's thread. If you are talking about making custom spider gears, etc....why not look into this?

So its a two part problem no matter what. If you simply created a modified gear and found room to machine out a cheap OBX OR went with the T850 style diff, you still need to source parts for the inners on the axle. Bolt ons would be quite extensive of a repair.

Could our OEM style inners be modified to chop off the ends and bolt on a new inner spline? Heard stories about somebody with interesting modified inners but I was not sure if it was done appropriately.
If the rest of the axle will survive that would be cool but I would bet the outers will fail next and there is no easy fix for that like there is for maybe a center shaft. The crazy honda axles come with larger spline hubs.

[turbovanman²]

I wondered the same thing with the u-joint, no other OEM uses a joint, its bolted to the block. GM did this for years on the high HP FWD cars.

Nice cooling mod Shadow,