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Thread: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

  1. #1
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    3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    Project "Green Machine"

    See post #47 for new plans.



    I recently blew a head gasket on my 3.0 in my shadow and i have 5 months to get it together for the next racing season. I will be starting this project in a month or two, I'm just pooling ideas for now. Here's what I've come up with so far.

    Goals

    1. The car has to be faster than a bolt on mods AWD Twin Turbo Stealth! (~13.50's)
    2. Reliability, I want to run it for a few years before I have to tear the motor/trans down. Once and Done!
    3. If I can avoid Megasquirt I will.
    4. Car will remain street legal and PA Inspectable. (emissions is visual here)
    5. Keep the interior looking relatively stock. Car will not be gutted.
    6. Must run on 93 pump gas.


    Current Configuration (If it's not listed, its stock)

    Best pass was 15.28 @ 88.88MPH Only got 4 passes with 50shot of nos and I snapped my jet holder while trying to change em. The car ran 16.00 @ 82MPH all day w/o nos (10+ passes). I suspect the headgasket was leaking during these runs. Best 60' as 2.180 with no burnout.

    1. 3.0/A543
    2. 225/50/15 drag radials
    3. Nitrous (hoping to run 75hp shot) ran a 50hp shot for a few passes.
    4. solid front motor mount and rear bobble strut
    5. rear air shocks
    6. cat gutted
    7. wideband 02

    Plans (Motor)

    1. Port upper and lower intake
    2. 58mm Ported throttle body (I have this but not on the car)
    3. clean up head ports (basically just polish em since I've never ported heads before.)
    4. 5 angle valve job at the machine shop
    5. Bored w/torque plate (not sure how far, depends on piston availability)
    6. Crank Scraper/Windage tray. (most likely custom)
    7. Engine blueprinted and balanced, file fit rings.
    8. Very much considering a Single Turbo setup and a custom exhaust (I Know I have to decide before I start)

    I also plan to have all the standard checks done, rod straightness, crank polish, heads and block for cracks, yada yada.

    Plans (Chassis/Trans)

    1. OBX LSD torn down from new and checked out (I've read thier quality control is very lacking)
    2. Beefed up clutch (not sure which one yet)
    3. Some wieght reduction like rear bumper support and door impact beams, maybe take out A/C even though it works good. Sound deadener removed too. I think realisticly I can drop ~200LBS from the car with a race weight w/170lb driver around 2650LBS.

    I'm open for suggestions, ideas, advice, comments, anything!

    A few specific questions though.
    1. Thoughts on Forged Pistons?
    2. Are head gasket upgrades available?
    Last edited by MC#4; 11-09-2011 at 06:07 PM. Reason: new plans

  2. #2
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    Stock rebuild and a Holset will probably get you what you want. Ondonti will be be in here before the end of the day, he has much experience with this However if you want to keep it together for several years, I would not run as much boost as he does. He tend to get carried away with it and blow stuff up lol. However he is daily'ing a turbo 3.0 Spirit right now I think.

    Anyway, a stock 3.0 w/ a turbo, even a smaller turbo, I can't see why it wouldn't get you into the 13's cheaper and easier than any other method.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  3. #3
    turbo addict
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    with the lsd he should be 13s no biggy with a cheep turbo. dr shred on the other site is pulling high 13s with his open diff and wide street tires and like 12psi through a ebay cx racing 63trim.. been doing it for 2 years now on stock internals.

  4. #4
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    I didn't think reliability and Nitrous went together and I think you should avoid it, to many variables and room for error. Besides couldn't you reach low 13's without it? A stealth is one hell of a fat car.

  5. #5
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    The nitrous is completely installed and works great in the car. I can't just take it out now, way to much time and money invested. Still the best bang for the buck in my opinion.

    Yeah I know the TT stealths are ungodly heavy @ 3800+ because I have one, and so does my cousin. He's doing some work to his over winter and I just want to be damn sure I smoke his --- this spring!

    P.S. I'm sure I could hit 13's with just a turbo or just a good shot of nos with some other minor mods and a good rebuild but I already have nos and I've been wanting to turbo this car for over a year. I don't really have an E.T. or horsepower goal. I just want to have fun with and see where it goes. If i crack 12's I won't be complaining

    I probably sound like a dumbass for building the shadow when I have a TT stealth, but I much prefer to smoke fools with my little "Green Machine".

  6. #6
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    Well if you already have nitrous installed, I'd maybe go with a high compression build, use Diamante pistons (10:1) and cams, or custom cams. Going 10:1 makes it an interference engine but it will respond much better to the nitrous. What FD ratio is the trans, 3.50 or 3.77? (can't remember if all the V6 trannies were 3.77 or not)

    I'm not sure how much of a shot the stock Diamante pistons will hold, but I'd think a properly set wet 100 or 150 shot would be okay.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  7. #7
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowv4l View Post
    I didn't think reliability and Nitrous went together and I think you should avoid it, to many variables and room for error. Besides couldn't you reach low 13's without it? A stealth is one hell of a fat car.
    fat car with more traction and aftermarket support

    8psi with lsd should walk that stealth as it sits and maybe get some slicks and 12psi through the right turbo and your good to go. My opinion on nos is that its cheater spray because its not ALWAYS there but it is cheep power.. winning is winning.


    i think cams should be the number one thing right now though.. i just got back from some tuning. reving the motor to 6800rpms repeatedly, sounds good when the limiter starts kicking in but we make NO power up there. volumetric efficiency just drops off like a dead bird falling from the sky. valve springs and the big cams are the way to go even if staying with stock rpms (6200)

    ---------- Post added at 04:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

    brent ran 10:1 stock pistons for a little bit.. basically same deal as the stock pistons, avoid detonation and your fine. that being said, he ran e85 and meth i think.. or 92oc and meth. either way he used meth injection BUT this was with stock ecu with limited timing control. this setup made alot of power.

    if you really want to shoot for 12s.. megasquirt makes not blowing up a whole lot easier. and it has support for nos control

  8. #8
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    My car is 3.50 Final Drive.

    Am I missing something because I don't see the point with different cams when Im rev limited at 5800rpms? I Will likely throw the manual ecu in the car to bump that up to 6000-6200 I forget which. Either way, I'm not convinced cams are going to make much difference. I've seen the Video on Ondonti's junkyard 11 second pass on stock heads/cams. Sure he was pushing crazy boost but still, It seems that cams are not the bottleneck. I Don't even want to rev higher than that, even if I did go MS. The reliability factor kicks in here. I want to drive this car to the track, make my passes and drive it home. That is very important to me.


    I like that people are throwin out ideas. Keep em coming!
    Also, just because I shoot an idea down now, doesn't mean I won't change my mind the next day.

  9. #9
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    My vote goes to more nitrous. That with more compression (10.5:1) should get your goals of low 13's.

  10. #10
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    Quote Originally Posted by MC#4 View Post
    My car is 3.50 Final Drive.

    Am I missing something because I don't see the point with different cams when Im rev limited at 5800rpms? I Will likely throw the manual ecu in the car to bump that up to 6000-6200 I forget which. Either way, I'm not convinced cams are going to make much difference. I've seen the Video on Ondonti's junkyard 11 second pass on stock heads/cams. Sure he was pushing crazy boost but still, It seems that cams are not the bottleneck. I Don't even want to rev higher than that, even if I did go MS. The reliability factor kicks in here. I want to drive this car to the track, make my passes and drive it home. That is very important to me.


    I like that people are throwin out ideas. Keep em coming!
    Also, just because I shoot an idea down now, doesn't mean I won't change my mind the next day.
    im on stock cams right now and with the stock limiter and my ability to push it further.. i still hate it.



    once my tq dips my hp falls off as well. no more power from those cams. I have the proper fuel and my datalogs tell me that im sucking in 99kpa all the way to redline (atmospheric here is 99-100kpa) so im not running out of air either. Its just crap headflow

    all i have is 3inch exhaust and pretty much every intake mod you can do to the stock intake besides porting the lower intake. So my motor is very close to yours. When i shift at the 6200rpm readline i land around 4000rpms.. so i get to use about 200rpms of my power band and then lose power again and again. Ill get you a cam card later that the 12second tona used (non turbo, ran nos and stock limiter)

    if i didnt have megadquirt i prolly would have gotten those cams already but i want to have something more creative (7200rpms, needs a bigger cam and valve springs which i cant do right now anyways)

    more pics of my dyno results




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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    For ease of use, is the better and easier bang for the buck. Shelgame should be able to remove or alter the rev limiter. These engines are very good for RPM, 7K with a properly rebuilt engine shouldn't be an issue.

    I can get cams made if your interested.

    Turbo's are fun but without going standalone, you have to mickey duck it. We have some threads talking about the various ways to trick the stock computer. Shayne is building a turbo 3.0L, so maybe he will chime in as he's going all out.

    Forged are a good idea, but costly, Shayne again just had Venolia's made, $900-$1000.

    I'll tell him about this so he can chime in on cost.

    Brent is currently running a stock 3.0L with a HE341, which are cheap and a good turbo for this engine.

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...set-he341-3.0L

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...FIC-Discussion
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

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  12. #12
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    yup my forged pistons are real nice, thanks to ordonti for the help with his numbers for when he had his made up. mine are stock cr (8.9:1) 1mm/~.040 over and the piston and wristpin combo are ~30 grams lighter than stock ones, which would be great for more rpms. and they were ~$780 usd, and the rest of the cost for me was shipping and duty at the canadian border, which brought the total to close to $1000. even though it wasnt cheap i am happy i will have them in my motor, i would more than happily recommend venolia to anyone.
    also simons cam he sells, the "mid" performance range one is really close to the crower regrind used in rick loziers, now reapers, daytona. the cams will help but the heads are going to require a bit of work if you want to flow a bunch more, i.e. epoxy work on the short turn radius (because there isnt much of one stock) and raising and widening the port to accomodate lost port cross section. and the port taper needs help too as the heads im working on have very very little port taper stock which doesnt help velocity and general flow very much.... the list of things to do can be endless.. or you can do basic work on your car and actually drive and enjoy it!

  13. #13
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    Using a rising rate regulator isnt hard but megasquirt is still better bang for the buck considering everything you get out of it.

    Ill spin my stock engine to 7k all day but again... We make no power up there. Valve float happens for me shortly after 7k though. Cams and stock limiter will do 12s... Just need alot of spray or a little boost and TRACTION

  14. #14
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    I still have the 10:1 pistons in. With big ring gaps they were strong enough to bend the crankshaft, even chipped a corner off one of the skirts when it possibly made contact with something.

    Nitrous should be all thats needed to run a low 13 if things are good and well. When I ran a high 13 my Daily driver Spirit on my ebay turbo setup, first pass with no tune, 5 pounds of boost, it was not making a lot of power.

    A lot of people run very slow for the potential they have. I went 12's with a fancy motor and 11's on a stock motor. Sometimes you are just doing things wrong.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    I went 12's with a fancy motor and 11's on a stock motor. Sometimes you are just doing things wrong.
    Or you learn, nothing wrong with that.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  16. #16
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    learn that there is no need for fancy pistons

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    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    This thread is already superior to the one on TD... Glad to see you posted here, MC!

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  18. #18
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundance 6g72 View Post
    learn that there is no need for fancy pistons
    I disagree, especially if he's going to run alot of

    Forged pistons are cheap insurance when/if something goes wrong.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  19. #19
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    I dunno, 1000 dollars could probably rebuild a stock 3.0 twice
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  20. #20
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    Re: 3.0 Build Project: "Green Machine"

    My next motor (if I build one) will have 10:1 pistons from RockAuto, heads ported by Ed, Crower re-grinds, solid rockers, stiffer springs with light weight retainers and Ed's turbo manifold setup with a low pressure turbo.

    If you already have the Nx then I'd pair the Nx with a copy of Reaper's cams and some modified Grand Prix headers and upgraded exhaust. If you're willing to go with something like MS for the engine controller, then I'd get ED to do your heads, get some even larger cams and with the power band moved a little higher. MS has some handy features for Nx control too.

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