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Thread: More transmission fun

  1. #1
    Mom Says I'm Special. :-) Turbo Mopar Staff Subliminal's Avatar
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    More transmission fun

    So, about a year ago I converted my truck from the auto w/ overdrive A518 to the 5 speed Getrag 360. The transmission/transfer case/etc all came from a plow truck, and there was some slop in the shifting as well as a whole lot of leaking out of both tranny and transfer case.

    At the same time I did the swap, I also had the flywheel turned and installed a new (OEM) 13" Sachs clutch kit.

    Well, after the new parts went in, I had...issues. Not drivability issues so much as just annoyances. If the engine was revved up, it would shake like crazy. So, I pulled the tranny again and took the flywheel and pressure plate in to be rebalanced. They both checked out, so I put it all back together. Same deal, so I called the company I purchased the clutch from and they had Sachs drop-ship me a new setup.

    Well, that cured the shake, but the balance issue was definitely still there, as instead of shaking, it just made what I can only describe as an 'out of balance noise'.

    Anyway, this went on for a year. I usually granny shifted and just avoided it by keeping the RPMs low. The Cummins is good like that, it likes it low.

    Well, fast forward to last week. I made a little extra at work, so I decided to fix my issues.

    I called a guy named Jim in Indiana who has a good rep rebuilding these old trans. I talked to him about swapping to the NV4500, and about the ins and outs of both the Getrag and the NV4500. Upon his recommendation (as someone who has driven and built both transmissions for years), I decided to purchase a rebuilt Getrag. $1100. On telling him about my noise/shake, he said he'd recommend going to a South Bend clutch/flywheel setup. He said that that out of balance was always an issue with the old setup (the pressure plate was cast and weighed in at probably 75 lbs). The flywheel originally had a brass bushing in it, and the SB setup has a ball bearing in the middle.

    So, I took that advice, too, and spend $750 on a new flywheel/clutch/pressure plate/TOB setup.

    Finally, my transfer case is the 'bulletproof' NP205. Very basic, and known in most 4x4 worlds as the top of food chain. I talked to him and he said he got $700 for a rebuilt one. I looked around and found a write-up on rebuilding it, and he agreed that it wasn't exactly 'rocket science' and sold me a reseal and rebuild kit for $200.

    So, $1100+$750+$200+$150(shipping) and I'm golden. Couple this with new U-Joints from and rear and a newly rebuilt driveshaft, and pretty much everything from engine to rear will be brand new.

    So, I tore into it last week. I got everything out from under the truck in no time. I've done the deed about 4 times now, so I basically take a sleeping pill, crawl under the truck, and when I wake up, it's apart.

    That night, my cousin Doug came over and we tore into the 205. The directions were great, and the rebuild went fairly smooth. Only hickup was that I busted off one of the spring retaining bolts that hold down the ball bearing to give the shift rails the feel of 'going into gear'. But I found a bolt the right size, cut it, notched it for a standard screwdriver, and drilled out the hole for the spring. Done.

    Then I installed the new flywheel and clutch setup, coupled the transmission to the transfer case, put it on the handy-dandy quad jack and rolled it under the truck...

    ---------- Post added at 08:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 AM ----------

    ...this is where things went a bit south on me. Like I said, I've done this before. The hardest part is getting everything lined up properly. The input shaft has to go thru the throw out bearing, then the splines need to go thru the clutch plate and finally the tip needs to go through the bearing in the middle of the flywheel.

    Well, that first day I was alone and tried for about 6 hours to get everything lined up and thru. I could get it all but the last 3/4 of an inch. Basically, I had the input shaft butting up against the flywheel bearing, but the TOB was in the right place, the splines were thru the clutch plate, and the tranny bolts were in the right spot.

    I crawled out from under the truck a defeated man.

    The next day I had some help, and we took the transfer case off and put a nice piece of plywood underneath for the jack to roll. Well, it would roll nice and easy, and we got it back to the same spot and no matter how we fenangled the jack, it would just thump up against the flywheel. Another few hours of this and we crawled out, defeated once again.

    So, I posted on a Cummins forum and a few guys mentioned hooking up the clutch and having someone press it while I pushed the tranny. Wouldn't you know I had it lined up so well that as soon as the clutch was depressed, the thing just moved right into place? Sweetness!

    After that, it was just a matter of attaching the bolts to the bellhousing, attaching the crossmember, and moving the TC up into place.

    This afternoon I need to install the shifter and the driveshafts and then take her for a spin and see how it all works.

    Good times, I tell you. Goes to show: Even when you've done a job 3 or 4 times, there's still something to be learned.

    ---------- Post added at 08:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 AM ----------

    Some pictures:


    Old tranny and new one...


    New setup, reassembled and ready to roll under the truck (new driveshaft in the background)


    ...alternate view (crossmember in background)


    SB clutch setup on top, OEM on bottom


    ...other side of clutch setup.
    Damon

    "America is all about speed...hot, nasty badass speed."
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

  2. #2
    boostaholic
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    Re: More transmission fun

    that is ONE HELL of a clutch upgrade looking at those pics!
    Pete Faggella 03 PT Cruiser, 2.4L N/A 5 speed. Daily driver. All stock with baby moon wheels. 85 LeBaron 2.2TBI auto. Hoped I'd see a difference with bumped compression, but I didn't. Still slow. "Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!'"

  3. #3
    turbo addict
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    Re: More transmission fun

    I like the OEM clutch, so much more material.

  4. #4
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: More transmission fun

    Maybe its me but damn, the other clutch looks like half the size of the OEM. What rating is it given?

    I know how you feel about lining up the trans to the clutch, even with a hoist, tranny jack, etc, I've had some fight me for hours, its bloody frustrating.

    Why did you upgrade the trans?
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  5. #5
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: More transmission fun

    I used to hate those cast iron transfer cases when i worked in the trans shop. I actually used the tranny jack on them.. The aluminum ones i could raise and lower by hand.

    But if it doesnt break... that's a pro that can outweigh (har har) a lot of cons.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  6. #6
    Mom Says I'm Special. :-) Turbo Mopar Staff Subliminal's Avatar
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    The stock clutch does have a Much larger mating area, but the huge cast housing is known to have serious balance issues. The clamping pressure on the old one was something like 2800lbs, the new one is like 3600.

    I finally got the whole deal installed... It took the push of the clutch and it mated right up. I almost crapped my pants I was so happy.

    Everything is installed and its back on the road with the one exception of the front driveshaft... The slip joint seems to be locked up on the front shaft and when I pulled one of the caps off the front u joint it was full of dust.. But I guess it could be way worse... I'm in jersey... I need 4wd about once a year.
    Damon

    "America is all about speed...hot, nasty badass speed."
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

  7. #7
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    Re: More transmission fun

    Just curious, why go with a 4500? Is it that much tougher after the 5th gear nut mod is done?
    Also, have you tried filling the front shaft with grease until it either moves or pops apart?
    I have to wonder if the front shaft was part of your noise vibration issue after the last time.
    Bryan
    86 GLHS #161, 2016 Impala
    SDAC National Member, SDAC Buckeye Chapter Member

    A man has got to know his limitations.....

  8. #8
    Mom Says I'm Special. :-) Turbo Mopar Staff Subliminal's Avatar
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    Re: More transmission fun

    Well the front shaft shouldnt spin when the hubs are unlocked and the tc is in 2wd.

    The 4500 is really not much of an upgrade according to general consensus. I talked to the trans builder, who actually really only works on those two trans, and he recommended just staying with the 360. Plus it would have been substantially more to change over.

    There was a guy on the forums for a while, Mysteryman, who used to be a Chrysler tech when they were first getting the Cummins engines in the truck. He said that the problems with the Getrag were twofold: First they didnt account for the angle of the unit in the truck, and they recommended 4 quarts, and it just wasnt enough. But with 5 qts that problem was solved. The second issue was that they used a pilot bushing in the flywheel instead of a bearing, and the bushing would wear out, allow for the input shaft to move around, and cause all sorts of havoc.

    So, with the tranny overfilled a quart and now I've got the bearing instead of the bushing, I think I should be good to go.

    I'll dig into the front shaft tomorrow. It went in and out a week ago, so it's just got to be a little frozened.
    Damon

    "America is all about speed...hot, nasty badass speed."
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

  9. #9
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    Re: More transmission fun

    So you stayed with the 360 trans? If so, I gotcha.
    Bryan
    86 GLHS #161, 2016 Impala
    SDAC National Member, SDAC Buckeye Chapter Member

    A man has got to know his limitations.....

  10. #10
    Mom Says I'm Special. :-) Turbo Mopar Staff Subliminal's Avatar
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    Re: More transmission fun

    Yep, stayed with ol' faithful, may she do me right!
    Damon

    "America is all about speed...hot, nasty badass speed."
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

  11. #11
    Mom Says I'm Special. :-) Turbo Mopar Staff Subliminal's Avatar
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    Re: More transmission fun

    So the saga continues...lol.

    Got everything back together, got in, fired it up, pushed the clutch, pulled towards 2nd and GGGGRRRRRRIIIIIIINNNNNDDDD!!! followed by CLUNK! followed by rolling forward.

    Huh. That's annoying.

    So came all sorts of messing with the hydraulics, shimming the slave cylinder and installing a new grommet on the master cylinder.

    Still, no dice. Turns out the way the hydraulic system works is that if you shim the slave, it just displaces more fluid up to the reservoir. Which, to put it mildy, is annoying.

    So, I did a lot of reading, and came across a really informative thread over at 1stgen.org, where someone installed the same exact clutch setup I did and had the same exact issues I'm having.

    They ended up bending the clutch pedal, as it was bottoming out before getting full throw.

    I ended up taking the pedal out, grinding off the branch that connected to the master cylinder rod and moving it.

    This is what it looked like originally:



    ...and this is what it ended up like:



    Of course, I ended up going a bit too far with it and now the pedal sits way too high and the clutch engages at the top of the pedal.

    So, in the spirit of 'damnit I should have done it right the first time!' I get to pull it apart one last time and move it about 1/2 way between the two extremes, weld it and get it right!
    Damon

    "America is all about speed...hot, nasty badass speed."
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

  12. #12
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    Re: More transmission fun

    I would say what a pain in the butt, but this is typical when modding stuff, as you know. That really was an easy fix compared to some others. How does it drive now?
    Bryan
    86 GLHS #161, 2016 Impala
    SDAC National Member, SDAC Buckeye Chapter Member

    A man has got to know his limitations.....

  13. #13
    Mom Says I'm Special. :-) Turbo Mopar Staff Subliminal's Avatar
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    Re: More transmission fun

    Well, last night I took the pedal back apart and rewelded it.

    First attempt, too low and didn't disengage.

    Ground, reweld.

    Second attempt, too high.

    Ground, reweld.

    Third attempt, still too high, but disengages lower.

    It's pretty annoying. I can't wrap my head around where it chooses to disengage. A seemingly slight adjustment seems to totally change where the clutch engages/disengages, and I can't find a happy medium between the pedal being too high and the clutch disengaging correctly. Grrr.

    Doesn't help that it gets dark within an hour of getting home, either.
    Damon

    "America is all about speed...hot, nasty badass speed."
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

  14. #14
    turbo addict
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    Re: More transmission fun

    Drill two holes, slot one slightly and make it so you can adjust the thing without having to reweld a billion times. Then, once you get it where you want, tack it up!

  15. #15
    Mom Says I'm Special. :-) Turbo Mopar Staff Subliminal's Avatar
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    Re: More transmission fun

    That's a good idea, Thanks!
    Damon

    "America is all about speed...hot, nasty badass speed."
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

  16. #16
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: More transmission fun

    Doesn't help that it gets dark within an hour of getting home, either.
    I hate that ----.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  17. #17
    turbo addict
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    Re: More transmission fun

    Quote Originally Posted by Subliminal View Post
    That's a good idea, Thanks!
    NP! We're all in this together, right?!

  18. #18
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    Re: More transmission fun

    So Damon, you get it corrected?
    Bryan
    86 GLHS #161, 2016 Impala
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    A man has got to know his limitations.....

  19. #19
    Mom Says I'm Special. :-) Turbo Mopar Staff Subliminal's Avatar
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    Re: More transmission fun

    Yeah, the pedal is a little high still, but within an inch of the height of the brake pedal, so I guess it's ok the way it is. I'm getting used to it, so it must be ok, right?

    I'm still having a vibration issue, though, which is driving me crazy. Pre-existing problem, and one I've been trying to track down for a long time. I think I'm going to start a separate thread on it.
    Damon

    "America is all about speed...hot, nasty badass speed."
    -Eleanor Roosevelt

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