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Thread: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

  1. #21
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Just wanting to see where this goes...

  2. #22
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor iTurbo's Avatar
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Well considering I've had two TIII rocker failures, both of which wiped the lobes right off the cam in addition to destroying the rocker/lifter assembly and getting metal EVERYWHERE in the engine, I would be relieved to see something like this come to market.

    I have quite a few TIII rockers in my stash that I would not even use anymore, as the roller pin has walked too far out one end for me to trust. Once that pin walks out either side too far, the pin gets ----eyed, roller seizes, damage ensues, and all so quitely you have no idea anything bad has happened at all until the motor grenades or you pop the valve cover off and happen to see it before that happens.

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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by iTurbo View Post
    Well considering I've had two TIII rocker failures, both of which wiped the lobes right off the cam in addition to destroying the rocker/lifter assembly and getting metal EVERYWHERE in the engine, I would be relieved to see something like this come to market.

    I have quite a few TIII rockers in my stash that I would not even use anymore, as the roller pin has walked too far out one end for me to trust. Once that pin walks out either side too far, the pin gets ----eyed, roller seizes, damage ensues, and all so quitely you have no idea anything bad has happened at all until the motor grenades or you pop the valve cover off and happen to see it before that happens.
    I have several like this that you describe, and I am shocked that others are not/were not having these failures. One motor I bought 12 years ago was a running motor (car fire) and I was looking through the rockers a few weeks ago while organizing my stash. One pin was totally out one side of the rocker! Another set I have from the motor I bought last year, and am rebuilding for my car, (actually rebuilt, just waiting) had a few pins worked out a bit, and one totally egged out on one side. Too common....
    Quote Originally Posted by 22mopar
    have a look at my feedback on the forum. all positive.

    Steve

    '90 VNT competition package Shadow - T-III SC6262 conversion/restoration
    '91 Spirit R/T - white
    '91 Spirit R/T - white
    '92 IROC R/T - red
    '67 Barracuda 273 now, 440/727 awaits....

  4. #24
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Directconnection View Post
    I have several like this that you describe, and I am shocked that others are not/were not having these failures. One motor I bought 12 years ago was a running motor (car fire) and I was looking through the rockers a few weeks ago while organizing my stash. One pin was totally out one side of the rocker! Another set I have from the motor I bought last year, and am rebuilding for my car, (actually rebuilt, just waiting) had a few pins worked out a bit, and one totally egged out on one side. Too common....
    Can you post a pic of the issues that you're talking about?

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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by MNmopar View Post
    Can you post a pic of the issues that you're talking about?
    I will try and do so for you tomorrow, ok? (if I forget... feel free to PM me) It is a really common thing... and surprised Jackson has never mentioned this or had any issues.

    It is funny, on all my 8v stuff I've done in the past, never had I really inspected any of the roller rockers before. I'd look over lobe wear, and take a glimpse at the wheels, and that was it. Never worried about pins walking out....
    Quote Originally Posted by 22mopar
    have a look at my feedback on the forum. all positive.

    Steve

    '90 VNT competition package Shadow - T-III SC6262 conversion/restoration
    '91 Spirit R/T - white
    '91 Spirit R/T - white
    '92 IROC R/T - red
    '67 Barracuda 273 now, 440/727 awaits....

  6. #26
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    is this a result of the crazy valve spring rate?

    would the raised retainers prevent this?

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  7. #27
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    is this a result of the crazy valve spring rate?

    would the raised retainers prevent this?

    Brian
    I'm sure it wouldn't hurt....

    But I'm skeptical still about the raised installed heights, especially so if planning to run 30+psi boost.

    The larger diameter wheel keeps roller rpms down, which would help the needle bearings/pins and also... help possible flaking from the overly excessive "skating" as they were telling me at ultradyne/Bullet cams, too (which -could- be the cause of lobe flaking) So if the larger diameter wheel doesn't have any negative effects (ie:valve timing changes via different profile) then it may help. But, he's going with totally new wheels/rollers anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by 22mopar
    have a look at my feedback on the forum. all positive.

    Steve

    '90 VNT competition package Shadow - T-III SC6262 conversion/restoration
    '91 Spirit R/T - white
    '91 Spirit R/T - white
    '92 IROC R/T - red
    '67 Barracuda 273 now, 440/727 awaits....

  8. #28
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Directconnection View Post
    It is a really common thing... and surprised Jackson has never mentioned this or had any issues.

    .
    I have had this issue on 2 engines I have bought over the years. When I put engines together or first get an engine that I will be running I check every roller pin and pin punch it 3 times 120 degrees from each other if one is starting to move. I should of mentioned this before i guess. It is a terrible thing to have happen as usually it takes the entire lobe out.....

  9. #29
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Directconnection View Post
    I'm sure it wouldn't hurt....

    But I'm skeptical still about the raised installed heights, especially so if planning to run 30+psi boost.

    The larger diameter wheel keeps roller rpms down, which would help the needle bearings/pins and also... help possible flaking from the overly excessive "skating" as they were telling me at ultradyne/Bullet cams, too (which -could- be the cause of lobe flaking) So if the larger diameter wheel doesn't have any negative effects (ie:valve timing changes via different profile) then it may help. But, he's going with totally new wheels/rollers anyways.
    We don't need crazy spring pressures, why are you resisting?

    I run low rates and have no issues with valve float, etc. Jackson runs a lower rate on his cars, no problems too.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

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  10. #30
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    We don't need crazy spring pressures, why are you resisting?

    I run low rates and have no issues with valve float, etc. Jackson runs a lower rate on his cars, no problems too.
    Not to be harsh, but because I like you and we are friends... that maybe I can get away with saying it, but your motor is far from being "Par Excellence" (I know... you can crap on me for not having my car running yet.. hehe)

    Anyways, it's not just about having enough/not enough spring pressures and controlling valve float that you can actually hear making it sound like a stutter box, it's much more than just that. I talked with 2 Chrysler engineers about this and also the head honcho at Ultradyne within the past year. The pressures are not "crazy high" ...but a bit higher than they should be. (3.5 Intrepids have lobe flaking as well... attributed to "crazy high" valve spring pressures too?) So with that said, I'll keep my opinion to myself. I may be wrong, but it's my prerogative.

    Anyways, here's a few pix of the failing pins me, iturbo, and Jackson are talking about. Two rockers have pins that really worked all the way out on one side, and I have a slew of others like in the other picture where they just started and you can see the "peened" end has now slid fully into the bore, so the flared outer ends aren't capturing the rocker anymore. (ie: nothing stopping them from going further....)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22mopar
    have a look at my feedback on the forum. all positive.

    Steve

    '90 VNT competition package Shadow - T-III SC6262 conversion/restoration
    '91 Spirit R/T - white
    '91 Spirit R/T - white
    '92 IROC R/T - red
    '67 Barracuda 273 now, 440/727 awaits....

  11. #31
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    I always thought of making a spring steel "brace" that held the pin in place. That way it could only get as far as being flush with the rocker on either end....

  12. #32
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lotashelbys View Post
    I always thought of making a spring steel "brace" that held the pin in place. That way it could only get as far as being flush with the rocker on either end....
    Yeah, I had some odd ideas myself... but one thing that kept reminding me: if the pins are walking out, is it because the rollers and pin surfaces are getting worn? If so, then eventually nothing would stop them unless the wheel itself seized.

    Jackson, I've never bothered to press a few out just to look at them, but have you? And... how do the pins look? Flat spots or pitting/galling or perfectly smooth?
    Quote Originally Posted by 22mopar
    have a look at my feedback on the forum. all positive.

    Steve

    '90 VNT competition package Shadow - T-III SC6262 conversion/restoration
    '91 Spirit R/T - white
    '91 Spirit R/T - white
    '92 IROC R/T - red
    '67 Barracuda 273 now, 440/727 awaits....

  13. #33
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    I have never completely pressed one out.

    In order for them to walk out one of the three surfaces have to be no longer parallel with each other......

  14. #34
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Wallace, if you're looking for any more guiney pigs I'll be happy to run them in my car until the snow flies and the car is put away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Directconnection View Post
    Jackson, I've never bothered to press a few out just to look at them, but have you? And... how do the pins look? Flat spots or pitting/galling or perfectly smooth?

    I pressed out several when I had replacement pins made to use the 8V rollers. Some had the pins just starting to walk, but were not as far along as the ones you posted. The pins themselves looked fine, no unusual wear or anything alarming. One thing to keep in mind if/when you press any out is that the rollers will deform the peen on the end that keeps the pins in place and will in turn gouge the pin bore on the side you remove them from. It's not terrible gouging, but enough that a proper sized pin will not spin as freely in that bore as the other. Here's two rockers that I have sitting around that the pins were pressed out of.




  15. #35
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Ok, so,after seeing these pictures, it seems it is the AL that the pins go through that is deforming ... perhaps a fix for this would be to bush the arm and maybe allow the axle /pin to float like a piston pin? You'd have to use a means of retaining them, much like Jackson suggested, or do a much better job of preening them in place. Another way might be to make a new axle in two pieces like a bolt and a "nutsert"..., though you'd still need to bush any deformed holes.

    Mike
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  16. #36
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Directconnection View Post
    Not to be harsh, but because I like you and we are friends... that maybe I can get away with saying it, but your motor is far from being "Par Excellence" (I know... you can crap on me for not having my car running yet.. hehe)

    Anyways, it's not just about having enough/not enough spring pressures and controlling valve float that you can actually hear making it sound like a stutter box, it's much more than just that. I talked with 2 Chrysler engineers about this and also the head honcho at Ultradyne within the past year. The pressures are not "crazy high" ...but a bit higher than they should be. (3.5 Intrepids have lobe flaking as well... attributed to "crazy high" valve spring pressures too?) So with that said, I'll keep my opinion to myself. I may be wrong, but it's my prerogative.

    Anyways, here's a few pix of the failing pins me, iturbo, and Jackson are talking about. Two rockers have pins that really worked all the way out on one side, and I have a slew of others like in the other picture where they just started and you can see the "peened" end has now slid fully into the bore, so the flared outer ends aren't capturing the rocker anymore. (ie: nothing stopping them from going further....)
    Say it all you want, lol, but the engine runs just fine, and it is running, vs yours,

    I am not the only one that agree's the spring pressures are too high, maybe chat with 5 digits as he also agrees.

    Anyhow, back to our scheduled programming.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  17. #37
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor rx2mazda's Avatar
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Say it all you want, lol, but the engine runs just fine
    Says the Tony Romo of TM............
    Carroll

    SILVER, 85 GLH-R/T, TIII powered, Fueltech, ID1300's. PTE5857
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  18. #38
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    BTW, this sucks! I just changed out my VC gaskets and I knew not of this problem. Now I'm wondering if I should go back and check this. Damn
    Carroll

    SILVER, 85 GLH-R/T, TIII powered, Fueltech, ID1300's. PTE5857
    RED, 91 Spirit R/T - Holset HE351 - 12.6 @ 107...R.I.P.



  19. #39
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    Re: TIII billet aluminum mechanical rockers being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by rx2mazda View Post
    Says the Tony Romo of TM............
    Tony Romo?
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

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