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Thread: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

  1. #21
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    so i could use the distributors output to send signal for spark to the fic, would i need to add a crank sensor from, say a later model 3l from a van? and run it solely to the fic, or would i need to see if i could pick out a wire that has a tach signal for the fic to read for rpms? or does the fic even really need a crank sensor input to work? i have a greddy already, but if altering timing via the fic can be done relatively easily than i could sell it and go this route instead.

  2. #22
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    you know what, i dont know if it requires a crank sensor. it has 2 cam inputs/outputs so that you can do the low and high rate for the cam signals.

    maybe someone ought to ask on the aem forums. ill do some digging.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  3. #23
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    MS controls timing for the dizzy with just 3 wires coming from the dizzy

    Connect the Grey wire to pin 24 / shielded white wire on the megasquirt harness.
    Connect Black/Light Blue to megasquirt sensor ground wire.
    Connect the Orange wire to the same power source as megasquirt to power the distributor.

    i dont see why the aem would be any different unless its only good for systems with a crank sensor/ cam position sensor.




    basically, the orange dizzy wire is powered when the ignition turns on, the black wire is ground and then grey wire is the actually wire that sends rpm info and such to the MS. From there you need to set the trigger angle is megasquirt to sync up with the timing of the dizzy. we do this by setting a fixed timing of 10* in MS and then use a timing light to find where we are. if its off, adjust the trigger angle in tuner studio until you read 10* with the timing light. I would think the AEM had a similar process for syncing the timing for a distributor based ignition..

  4. #24
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    from what i can see, the aem only intercepts the spark firing impulses from the distributor on the way to the ecm, the unit needs at least one input for spark to control timing and it needs a signal for rpm via a magnetic or hall effect crank sensor. ms, is totally different due to being standalone, the aem fic simply modifies, and limits what the ecm can see and react to. it looks as though i can run a stand alone crank sensor (with 5v power?) and 36-1 wheel to give the unit a rpm signal. the one thing still that is in my mind is that with obd1 cars like my sbec2 i dont know if i can monitor and adjust fuel trims realtime, to avoid the computer learning the short term and longterm fuel trims being out of whack by richening up the mixture while in boost or in transition to boost. i suppose i could use a o2 simulator and use a standalone wideband o2 sensor to monitor and adjust fueling, and totally keep the ecm in the dark for fuel control. any ideas anyone? lets discuss this more.

  5. #25
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    thats why i dont like the idea of a piggy back system. Ed ran emanage though and i think he was fine as far as the computer learning and tuning out your changes. not sure though.

    how much does the aem cost? I think you can wire MS in as just an ignition control and the sbec will just throw a code possibly?

  6. #26
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    to avoid the computer learning the short term and longterm fuel trims being out of whack by richening up the mixture while in boost or in transition to boost. i suppose i could use a o2 simulator and use a standalone wideband o2 sensor to monitor and adjust fueling, and totally keep the ecm in the dark for fuel control. any ideas anyone?
    The FIC can offset the o2 sensor signals so the computer sees what you want it to see from the o2s. That way you can adjust your offsets so that the fuel trims stay near 0 with your setup.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  7. #27
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    so remember what afr you are at when part throttle and wot and have the aem telll the spec that that is what is happening even though you might be super rich?

    how much does this thing even cost

  8. #28
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    then could i monitor fuel trims real time using a mechanic quality scan tool on my sbec2? i see the manual says to put a resistor in the o2 sensor signal line, and then run a "tee" for the f/ic to add or reduce voltage as it see's fit as the signal wire goes to the ecm to convince the computer the trims are fine. i know on an obd2 car this isnt a question, its easy to monitor fuel trims.

    ---------- Post added at 08:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 AM ----------

    ebay says approx 350-400 plus shipping and taxes at the border for me. i dont want to go standalone due to me using my a604, and the lack of support for the ms2 to talk to the trans properly, and the megashift being in its infancy still (not to mention the lack of built in capacity to compensate for worn clutches)

  9. #29
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    MS can be installed as a piggy back

    edit: well sort of

    i think you can hook it up to just the injectors and have it control the injectors without any input from the sbec.

    it just needs inputs from all your sensors still i think. 87turbodance would know more on the subject than me.

    i like the idea of the aem but $350 is to much imo compared to megasquirt

  10. #30
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    the big thing is ms would do a good job as a partial controller or a side by side install but the problem exists of my stubborness plus with a piggyback the car always has a very close base tune for 90% of the driving conditions when out of boost. with the ms i would still need to find a way to modify what the computer sees for fueling or else it may go goofy and try to pull timing or throw a bunch of codes and put the trans into a limp mode. not trying to say that the piggyback way is better, just trying to explore a different route that is more appealing to me at this juncture. failing this i will probably duplicate ordonti's rising rate setup. truthfully for every sucessfull ms install thread i see many hundreds more threads of problems and failures and tuning difficulties (not just on this site or other td sites but also truck sites where guys are converting older carbed truck to more modern efi)

  11. #31
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    adam, hook your FIC up to your 3L dynasty and see if it can offset the distributor timing signals without having a crank sensor.

    i havent asked yet but because the distributor is at cam speed, and the FIC has cam specific inputs, that it can determine RPM and stuff with only cam signals and no crank.... makes sense cause the oem ecu does it that way and it makes sense that it has 2 cam sensor inputs for multiple cam sensors or distributor signals.

    i registered on the aem forums. when my account is activated, ill do some more digging.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  12. #32

    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundance 6g72 View Post
    thats why i dont like the idea of a piggy back system. Ed ran emanage though and i think he was fine as far as the computer learning and tuning out your changes. not sure though.
    I use an FMU and AFPR to keep big injectors "stock appearing" to the stock ecu for off boost use. The FMU handles bulk of the extra fuel in boost with the e-Manage fine tuning the fuel (the lean spot on transition into boost and at higher RPM where the ported heads and intake improve flow...)

    If you just run large injectors the stock ecu will use the long term fuel compensation factor to tune them out...

    If you are staying in the stock RPM range on a turbo 3L, the Greddy e-Manage is a GREAT way to go. Easier to wire in and behaves stock in the non-altered areas. (ie. idle, cruising, starting, etc.) I have documentation on my website showing how to wire it in...

    Ed Kelly
    www.kmperformance.com

  13. #33
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    ^i have read the install, a close friend of mine gave me his emanage blue off of his honda accord and i have already peeled it open to switch around the jumpers and the "knobs" on the bottom, problem is for me he didnt include the harness or the cable for tuning the unit, i already have a copy of a good version of the software and the same friend is a member of a mail list that specializes in emanage stuff, i am looking at the aem because of the possibility of controlling timing, so far nobody has managed to control timing on a dodge with the emanage.
    side note, a tech person at aem said to me via phone, that during the initializing you do to your aem install on your car, it says to start it up and bring it to 3000 rpm and press a button on your laptop screen to initialize the crank signal, he said it is his impression that the program sees whatever signal it gets for rpm and uses it to calculate your rpm based on how many pulses it sees at 3000rpm. so my impression is that maybe i could use the high rate (360-4?) pattern to act as a crank signal for the computer even though its only moving at half the actual rpm?

  14. #34
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    If the AEM has a crank and cam signal input. The low data rate output on the dizzy is equivalent to a 3 toothed crank position sensor. The high data rate line has the missing section which would be used as a cam position sensor (not sure how many teeth total or how many missing).
    Last edited by 87turbodance; 09-25-2011 at 03:02 PM.

  15. #35
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    I dont remember why i think this but i thought the trigger wheel had 360 holes? or maybe 359 heh.

    Brian i am definitely putting the FIC on my 3.3 dynasty.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  16. #36
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    10 missing, 350 holes IIRC I've posted a diagram several times, see if I can find it again...

    ---------- Post added at 11:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------

    Oh crap, dodgy memory

    15*, 15 slot blank, 345 holes

    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  17. #37
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by shayne View Post
    the big thing is ms would do a good job as a partial controller or a side by side install but the problem exists of my stubborness plus with a piggyback the car always has a very close base tune for 90% of the driving conditions when out of boost. with the ms i would still need to find a way to modify what the computer sees for fueling or else it may go goofy and try to pull timing or throw a bunch of codes and put the trans into a limp mode. not trying to say that the piggyback way is better, just trying to explore a different route that is more appealing to me at this juncture. failing this i will probably duplicate ordonti's rising rate setup. truthfully for every sucessfull ms install thread i see many hundreds more threads of problems and failures and tuning difficulties (not just on this site or other td sites but also truck sites where guys are converting older carbed truck to more modern efi)
    in 100% honesty. i can make a tune based off of Ed's tune in 20min to get my self to work and school everyday. Making it perfect takes a little longer but its not hard and imo MS drove better than the stock ecu did. IT really isnt as big of a deal as some think. i thought it would be a pain at first but it really isnt.

    as for the tranny computer.. idk

    and for the failures, not everyone posts up about how well MS is working. Most only find time to post when they have problems. This is true with anything. I only recommend MS because i use it and its cheep... any stand alone will do.

  18. #38
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    i just disected my own distributor to look at the optical sensors disc and its identical to the image posted, what concerns me now it that if the low rate just controls injector timing than it wont be anywhere close to ignition timing for my purposes, and with the high rate giving data to the ecm for ignition timing means that the ignition is completely timed internally in the ecm which means i could try to delay the signal to the coil from the ecm (if the aem could do that, my impression is it needs to delay the cam signal to the ecm) or could the aem handle delaying the high rate signal to the ecm? a standalone crank sensor wouldnt be that hard too do to give the aem a rpm signal with a generic magnetic sensor and a 36-1 wheel.
    also a friend who has a later model caravan with a 3l has a factory crank sensor on the trans bellhousing, it reads a flexplate that has a given number of cut-outs to give rpm data, and his distributor is different on the inside.
    anybody have any more thoughts?
    just checked again.. the gaps in the high rate ring dont line up with the low rate ring like they do in the picture posted. i need to figure out how to post pictures.
    Last edited by shayne; 09-25-2011 at 06:14 PM.

  19. #39
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    The 96+ Caravan has the crank teeth on the flexplate. I believe it has 3 sets of teeth - 2 sets of 4 and one set of 5. The 96+ van dizzy is just a TDC sensor - the inside of it is a half moon disk.

  20. #40
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    Re: 3.0L AEM FIC Discussion

    ^thats what it all looked like to me, poor guy got all freaked out when i started digging into his van because i wanted to know more about how his and mine are different.. lol.

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