3.0 + Drag Week + pictures and updates :D

[Ondonti]

Yes, please keep the power wires clean. I have a fuse distribution block that feeds power to each thing separately. Nothing in my Duster that is important shares any sort of power feed.
Also, make sure the Wideband is grounded to the exact same spot as MS. I also use a grounding block for all my MS wires/sensors, etc. Everything grounds to the same block an I put the wideband and MS in the same hole in the grounding block. I had bad problems when they were grounded in very different spots. MS and the wideband were not reading the same afr.

I was only asking to check with no accell enrichment as a troubleshooting technique. I didn't think there was a problem with accell enrich so this proves that.

[Sundance 6g72]

you sure about grounding everything to the same spot? i might have the wideband issue too

one of my sensor grounds for the MS goes straight to the wideband ground wire.... and thats it. its not in the same spot as everything else. So in a perfect world, would we have all 6 MS ground wires at one spot combined with all the ground wires from everything else? i guess that does make the most sense and ill probably rewire my car when i get time.

my wideband seems to get an offset reading as well

[87turbodance]

The injector drivers are mounted inside the MS case and normally sink (ground) the fuel injectors to open them. The injector drivers sink to the power ground plane on the MS board and ED is using high-z injectors to fly-back noise will be minimal.

I believe that ED has wired MS into his car utilizing the stock ASD relay and existing wiring. This will keep the power feed for MS and the power feeds for the Injectors, Coil, Fuel pump and O2 heater on a separate circuit.

Some people make some changes inside the MS case to bring out the flyback 12V return wires, for the injector drivers, on separate wires to reduce noise in the MS case but that is typically only required with low-z injectors.

Only thing I don't know, is if ED is powering MS directly through a relay right off the battery. This doesn't seem to be a requirement in our cars but can reduce electrical noise considerably for MS.

In my experience, installing the capacitor in the MS board, does an excellent job of cleaning up the noise that MS sees. The boot jumper wiring on the MS board has a design fault in that it creates an easy path for electrical noise to reach the processor.

Anyway, I recommend installing a capacitor in the boot jumper holes and flashing to the newest firmware along with using MAPdot accel enrichment.

My old 2.2 t1 (log) Sundance with MS had a best time of 16.2 at 88 MPH with bald tires and massive wheel hop. I expect more from Ed's 3.0.

I'm taking my Spirit to the track tonight so see what it can do. No wideband though so the tune is rough.

---------- Post added at 08:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 AM ----------

Here is Innovate info for the LC1:

a. Red 12V supply
b. Blue Heater Ground
c. White System Ground
d. Yellow Analog out 1
e. Brown Analog out 2
f. Green Analog Ground
g. Black Calibration wire

I don't have one but my believe is that the analog ground should be connected to the MS sensor ground and the other grounds should be connected to the same main ground as MS.

Some LC1s don't have the green analog ground. In this case I would ground all the LC1 wires in the same place as the MS main grounds. Should be near the battery.

[Sundance 6g72]

injector drivers and coil/coilpack ignition drivers shouldnt be fed from the MS mainboard but from an external source like a main power relay or something like that.

if you feed them from the MS board, the noise from the injectors and coil firing, mess up synch signals and give resets and other goofy stuff.

brian

are you talking about having different relays powering the injectors and coil? from the diagram it looks like the injectors are powerd by the same relay as power to MS.. and if ED used this same relay for the coil this could be causing some noise?

---------- Post added at 09:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 AM ----------

ryan, we just read your post. not sure what ed is thinking but hes going to pick up some wire and i think re ground some things

in the mean time im going to make my own diagram of how im going to wire my car...... just so i know i have it right


more pics on facebook. if someone wants to see them just go and add me. id put more on photobucet but it does not like our internet for whatever reason

http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=534573898

[87turbodance]

are you talking about having different relays powering the injectors and coil? from the diagram it looks like the injectors are powerd by the same relay as power to MS.. and if ED used this same relay for the coil this could be causing some noise?

MS should be powered by it's own separate relay right off the battery or from the ignition switch. The injectors, coil, fuel pump, ect, should be powered off their own relay with the fuel pump optionally power though it's own relay triggered by the injectors, coil, ect relay. Early chrysler cars use the first scheme where the fuel pump is power with the same relay as the injectors, coil, o2 heater. Later chryslers have the injectors and coil on one relay with the fuel pump and o2 heater on an other relay that is triggered by the first relay.

I looked at the logs that post mos recently. There are a few funny spikes in the PW but overall it is pretty smooth. Any chance I could have a copy of Ed's tune that he has been using. The only one I have shows he is only using like 31 degrees of timing ay WOT.

Is ED using the AFR target table while doing these runs? I was wondering if turning it off might clean up the PW spikes and then the VE table can be tuned after each run using megalogviewer.

[Sundance 6g72]

we are tuning with megalog viewer only... ill upload his tune 1 second

---------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 AM ----------

it wont let me upload on this connection............

[87turbodance]

no worries. I have some C# programming I should be doing anyway

[Sundance 6g72]

what if i did my grounds like this

left side of engine bay

CTS, IAT,TP, DIZZY grounded to passenger side shock tower or similar location.
MS pin 17 and 18 run all the way to passenger side shock tower (same spot as the sensor's ground wires)

then i run a 4gauge wire from the same spot as those wires all the way to the ground block on the driver's side.

my wideband ground would go to the ground block
pin 19 would also go to the ground block.

pin 7 8 9 (MS ground) would go to this ground block as well

then the ground block would be connected to the NEG battery terminal by a 4gauge wire.


now the question is, the main relay and fuel pump are the only grounds left to deal with.. can i ground them to the chassis or should i run them to the ground block?

[87turbodance]

what if i did my grounds like this

left side of engine bay

CTS, IAT,TP, DIZZY grounded to passenger side shock tower or similar location.
MS pin 17 and 18 run all the way to passenger side shock tower (same spot as the sensor's ground wires)

then i run a 4gauge wire from the same spot as those wires all the way to the ground block on the driver's side.

my wideband ground would go to the ground block
pin 19 would also go to the ground block.

pin 7 8 9 (MS ground) would go to this ground block as well

then the ground block would be connected to the NEG battery terminal by a 4gauge wire.


now the question is, the main relay and fuel pump are the only grounds left to deal with.. can i ground them to the chassis or should i run them to the ground block?

Connect all sensor grounds directly to MS Sensor ground wires. Do not connect MS sensor ground wires to any part of the engine or engine bay or you will get ground loops (bad).
Have one central spot for power grounds (like LC1 power ground and MS wires 7,8 and 9) like the ground block you mentioned but only have ONE ground block near the battery.

Connect fuel pump and other things to the main power ground as well. Keep the main power ground near the battery.

A car stereo noise filter inline with the MS power feed is recommended by the MS folks if you are having noise issues.

There are tons and tons of discussion on the Ms board related to electrical noise. The answers always given are the things I've mentioned.

[Sundance 6g72]

okay so that might be our issue

we are going to run pin 17 to the ground for TPS and IAT. (they are on the driver side)

we will then run pin 18 and 19 to the other sensor grounds. (dizzy, cts, wideband,)

right now they are grounded to the chassis so that might be the problem.. we will make sure the grounds go to pin 17 18 19 only and nowhere else and see if that helps

---------- Post added at 10:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 AM ----------

pin 7 8 9 will go to the battery

[RoadWarrior222]

And rebuild it into an Altoids tin, they have near legendary electronics screening and protection abilities!

[Sundance 6g72]

pin 7 8 9 are now run to the battery... before they where at the chasis.

pin 17 18 19 are now removed from the chassis and are only connected to sensor ground wires

we have the tps, iat on one sensor ground, we have the dizzy on one sensor ground and now we have the cts on its own ground and the wideband will be grounded with it.

long story short, the grounding was completely wrong and hopefully this fixes things.

[Ondonti]

I am not following everything you are doing there but make sure the wideband is grounded to the same spot that the MS board is grounded to. Everything MS related should be grounded to the same spot. Wideband and anything runing the motor is "ms" relate
Noise is one problem I never had. I also did not splice power wires, I ran distribution blocks with a fuse for each item that needed power. Only

My myself, I am hoping my AIS problem is a wiring problem like you are having.

Just looking at your earthquake logs shows why the car is down on power. When my Duster starts up after 6 months of sitting with 1+ year old Ethanol in the tank I know MS can't be that bad.

[Sundance 6g72]

ill upload a new log later. we got it to run alot better but not by much in the 1/4mile.

not sure if your MS pinout is the same as ours.

pin 17 18 19 are sensor ground.. we ran all the sensor's ground wires to those pins... not sure about the wideband, the lc1 confused us and i left that up to ed to figure out....

ping 7 8 9 are power ground, we ran them to the neg battery terminal. Same thing with the lc1 power ground (not sensor ground)

not sure how he has his power wires hooked up but thats for him to decide, drag week is done and we will be heading out soon.


ill remember to post the new log later.. it seemed like 1st gear and 2nd gear where no good and 3rd gear stayed pretty damn steady.. not perfect but pretty good. this is after we got new wires cap and rotor...

[c2xejk]

Just got back from the dyno. With the car exactly as it was during the last day at the track it put down 166 whp. Leaned A/F ratio down to ~13.0 and retarded timing some and whp jumped up to 176 whp (multiple pulls as I tweaked A/F and spark timing separately...) The RPM sensor on the dynojet was not working so I have to guess on the RPM of peak hp (~5600 RPM...)

I made a few tweaks to work on off peak hp. Retarded timing in the off peak part of the table and either gained a little or didn't lose anything.

It looks like the rings are leaking. During the WOT runs I was getting some oil smoke out the tail pipe... Looks like it is time to plan a rebuild...

[Ondonti]

How about the shakey datalogging in MS?

[c2xejk]

I think the shaky data logging was due to spark plug wires being too close to the wide-band wires...

On the oil smoke, I am wondering if the source is the PCV system and not the rings...

---------- Post added at 08:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 AM ----------

Thinking about what you are asking and I checked the timing err field and that hasn't changed... In some searching, I found indication that it doesn't mean much... There was talk of a fix, but no details... Not sure what to make of it. Seems strange that is so much more than what you see, but I haven't found out what it really means...

[Sundance 6g72]

idk.. oil smoke when wide open on a block with LOTS of miles on it makes sense for it to be the rings.

[c2xejk]

"Makes sense" and "is the cause of the problem" are two different things.... Since there is an "easy" check to see if it is from the PCV system, I should check that before I go through a rebuild...

[Sundance 6g72]

well yeah.. but if you rebuild it you can go with 10:1 pistons