3.0 + Drag Week + pictures and updates :D

[Shadow24]

A couple suggestions: did you do a free air calibration on the lc1 after the firmware update? the update probably wiped out the sensor calibration and is resuling on an incorrect A/F signal. This can cause the MS to overcompensate with more fuel causing rich misfiring even though the gauge is reading lean



As for shifting, run out 3rd. I dropped like 2 tenths or more when stopped shifting to 4th. I only hit about 6800rpms or so with 205/55R15 tires and clear the traps aat almost 95mph (best et was a 14.308 on 24.5x8.5 slicks at 94-ish mph)

[Sundance 6g72]

we dont have slicks, and you say you should have 200whp? we might have a little less but should still hit 14s...

tell ED to stop running 31 degrees. Run 40 or more degrees total. He already proved on the dyno that an OEM style 3.0 makes more power when you go from 38 degrees to 41 degrees (+3 degrees base). Now, why is he running 10 degrees less. My cars are always turds when I do that. He is so far down on power.
He needs 12.5-13.0:1 AFR and lots of timing.

One thing I have never had trouble with is running fast when I want to, even when I bring a knife to a gun fight.
One question I have is what gear are you guys ending in. If you rev to 7000 you don't need 4th gear. Are you short shifting and killing power, or running out of power in 3rd...I am thinking you need 4th because I bet you have tiny 50 series tires on there also.

we are running more than 31* I think it was at 44 total but we lowerd it to 38? and it kept the same speed? idk.


ryan, the log is mainly cruise.. he likes it at 16 when cruising and when he lifts off throttle it will go to 21 for a second. We found the problem, after hours of driving in the heat the fuel pump dies out and fuel pressure drops to 10psi or so. we have a new pump but wont know how it holds until the long drive tomorrow

ed dynod this car at around 170whp i think... thats 20 more than my car and im told i should be able to run a 15.3 I dont know whats going on.


the data logs of the track runs seem to go like this

1st gear, afr spikes alot.. rich lean rich lean but then 2nd gear holds pretty good and 3rd gear is rather steady as well. is the dizzy output having a hard time with 1st gear RPMs increasing very fast? also, we run 3rd gear all the way, no 4th gear.

[Pat]

Good luck out there...sounds like you're onto the issue with the fuel pump.

If you see the guy from PA with the '51 Henry J in the Gasser class, his name is Andy Nelson. Great guy and fellow GRM Challenger. Wish him luck for me.

Pat

[87turbodance]

In the log I see tps based accel enrichment when there is no change in the TPS position. This is causing changes in AFR while driving at a steady load. That shouldn't happen.

[Ondonti]

Confirmation on the LC1 calibration? Something is wrong. Hope the cam timing and all the basics are correct.
While general driving is time consuming to tune, WOT is really not a lot of work to get tuned when everything is working properly.

I don't see how a fuel pump in that kinda condition can really be providing the good AFR numbers you claim in your logs. I don't really want to look at your cruise logs. I would maybe install the software if you had a racing datalog up.

[Shadow24]

In the log I see tps based accel enrichment when there is no change in the TPS position. This is causing changes in AFR while driving at a steady load. That shouldn't happen.

I second this. If you are tripping accel enrich at WOT in 1st and some in 2nd, you may need to look at the TPS settings. you may be getting noise on the signal input to the MS or there is noise/voltage on the ground plane causing the appearance of TPS change to trigger the accel enrich. Also consider, if you are using MAP/TPS blended for accel enrich, if you are getting spikes/dips in your MAP reading at WOT, that can trigger accel enrich if the thresholds on either are too low

[Sundance 6g72]

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20774946/DataLogs.zip

i uploaded both passes from yesterday. 1st gear looks way messed up compared to 2nd and 3rd

we are recalibrating and i think switching over to map based accel

[Ondonti]

I don't think accell enrichment has anything to do with your problems. You don't need it, its a drivability thing. You have something more serious wrong then the enrichment settings.

[87turbodance]

At WOT at 2500 RPMs the PWs are jumping from 9 to 12 ms while holding a steady load. These pw spikes appear to be TPS based accel enrichment. That's going to slow you down.

[Sundance 6g72]

we switched to 25% tps based.. not sure if it helped, ill push for him to do 0% tps based and all map based

anyways, i had ed let me push his timing. IT goes like this

100kpa 17 19 28 30 32 38 42 46 48 50
90kpa 17 19 28 30 32 and so on

rpm 800 1000 1800 2000 2500 3500 4000 5000 6200 7500

the way we did it was like this

we looked at a log and found that rpms got a little erratic when the ignition flatlines. we increased ignition timing at those rpms and then the rpm curve in the log got smoother. we kept going until the curve got pretty damn smooth. for all i know, we could have 4000rpms have 48* and 7500 max out at 56 but we stopped at 50*now the

afr is still not holding 12.5 at wot. (usually spikes very lean once and then it holds in the high 11s and low 12s with one or two 13:1 on ave) Maybe its from the 25% tps based accel? Not sure.

as for the race tomorrow, the plan is to shift at 7500 rpms because you can actually feel the power go until about 7000rpms. we were shifting at 6800 with the old timing but now it feels better to push the Rs a little higher.

today with the bad elevation in texas everyone ave. a drop of .6 so we ran a 16 and 15.9 which was about right compared to 15.3 at good elevation. HE was getting 100kpa in kansas but today in texas we could not get 90kpa.. now in Oklahoma we are getting 98kpa ave so it should run at least a 15.3 with a 2.2 second '60 or better considering the somewhat smoother AFR and the better timing and shift rpm.

---------- Post added at 09:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 PM ----------

we are also confident that the new fuel pump fixed the random leaning out and losing fuel pressure after driving for long amounts. today we had no issues and it was the longest drive yet.

[Vigo]

Well i guess i was on track with it being a fuel supply problem, but i overcomplicated it a little bit.. Glad to hear you are chipping away at the issues. Good luck.

[Ondonti]

Hey guys, I looked at the datalogs. I think you should completely turn off accell enrichment and datalog.

Compared to a 1-4 run of mine, your lines all look very very very choppy. I also noticed your timing error % (not exactly sure what that is beyond the obvious) is huge. Yours is constantly + or - 12%
Mine is + or - 3" at MOST and it doesn't bounce around as bad. When I had traction it only got to 2.5% at most.

My AFR lines are just dead flat, so are my PW.
Not sure if you have bad grounds or an unhappy distributor or sick megasquirt. I did notice that you are running a lot more dwell then me, I think I need more.

I was goign to complain that your timing was conservative and your afr's were low, until I looked at my own old datalog and saw how terrible some of your fueling lines are, and then that timing error %.

[Sundance 6g72]

are you saying to go do some logs with no enrichment and keep it that way until we do some passes and see if that helps? I really think the new timing was needed. you can see where the rpm data sort of falls on its self with the low timing but once we got aggressive with the timing the rpm curve smoothed out and was a real curve without alot of the choppyness. AFR also ave in the 12s now but its not consistent what so ever. the tps accel might be to blame, it cant be easy to set up twin 80s. we changed to 0% tps based (100% map based now) but have not tried it yet...

its up to ed on turning accel off, i have no clue how to set that up

---------- Post added at 08:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 AM ----------

i think the timing inconsistency was caused by insufficient timing! we are looking at the logs from when we ran with alot of timing and we did not ave +- 12 anymore.. it was less. we are going to run with even more timing and see if it has an effect.

if you also look at the timing err.. the low end (3500rpms and less) the err is higher but this is also where we did not get aggressive with the timing for 2 reasons. 1, Ed already rips the street tires apart so more is not better and 2 because when racing, his shifts land around 5000rpms so we dont have any real loss doing that.

we will also experiment with the accell turned off.

[87turbodance]

If you have some downtime where you can do a little bit of tuning, I suggest you flash MS to the latest firmware. You appear to be getting TPS based accel when I can't see a reason why you should be in the log. Here is the latest MS2 firmware 3.1.1: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/....1_release.zip. I believe Ed is running MS2 2.1?

Also, if you have the tools, soldering a capacitor in the position where the boot jumper normally goes on the MS board does an excellent job of filtering some of the electrical noise that enter MS. This really help clean up logs and stabilize sensor readings. Noise in MS can cause all sorts of irritating problems. MS2 seems to really dislike any noise on MS's +12V line. I use a 47uF 50v ceramic capacitor in mine. Also, does ED have any shielding on the signal wire coming from distributor pickup? The harness has some shielding stock, but I found that the shield wire had broken off where it is attached to the distributor housing on my car.

I'd get rid of TPS based accel enrichment and use just map based accel with those huge TBs.

I would think you would get a bog when you shift if accel enrichment is turned off; unless you're flat shifting.

[Sundance 6g72]

we tried all map accel and no accell.. no joy

ed is reading this so ill let him decide on the capacitor.

runs today where no good either.. MPH stayed about the same too.. im not sure whats going on. still getting random spikes in the AFR table.. is that really enough to take a 1second - 1.5seconds out of a run? we should run 14.5 on a good run imo

i think ed shifts softer than most but its not slow by any means.. im out of thoughts, tomorrow is the last day to hit the strip so i guess 15s is all we can get as of now.

[Sundance 6g72]

what is timing err? also, i think ed is going to go verify the shielding for the dizzy wire

[Aries_Turbo]

normal MS questions...

power feeds for ignition and injection drivers separate from the main MS power feed?

the MPH does seem a bit low. I did 15.7 @ 87mph with a stock 3.0L and a caravan 604 in a reliant on crap tires with a crap hot air intake and a glasspack for a muffler leaving it in drive and having the TCM shift early into 4th.

Brian

[Sundance 6g72]

each run was 88-90mph if i remember right.

the wiring diagram says to put the power wire for the dizzy to the same power source as megasquirt. not sure on injector drivers though.

[c2xejk]

normal MS questions...

power feeds for ignition and injection drivers separate from the main MS power feed?

Not sure I understand the question, but I followed what 87turbodznce has posted on how to wire it up.

Checked the shielding for the wiring on the distributor side of the connector. It ohms out to ground...

[Aries_Turbo]

injector drivers and coil/coilpack ignition drivers shouldnt be fed from the MS mainboard but from an external source like a main power relay or something like that.

if you feed them from the MS board, the noise from the injectors and coil firing, mess up synch signals and give resets and other goofy stuff.

brian