Double Flare Techniques?

[Directconnection]

I can't believe that I have to post about this... but my car's been held up for some time because I just cannot get a decent double flare.

I'd spend an hour almost making an exact repro of the rear axle to caliper's solid line, then practice a double flare and then do it to the new line, only to have it come out shittty. Cut it off, and re-do it and it comes out worse.... over and over to the point that the line becomes to short to use. It's such a simple job that is kicking my azz.

The flare ends up squooshing over to one side some, mostly because of the 1st step, but the 2nd step really makes it bad.

I have a BluePoint double flaring kit, and when that wasn't working well, borrowed a co-worker's MAC flaring kit. His 3/16" die looks a lot more shallow than mine and won't bottom out... anyways, this is the setup:

Using normal steel 3/16" tubing from NAPA. BluePoint or MAC flaring kit. I am cutting the tube squarely with a decent tubing cutter, and lightly filing the leftover burr flush to the actual cut end, using the "reamer" of sorts to remove the inside burr, and then putting a slight chamfer on the od of the end, as well. And yes, I am using the 1st step of the forming die on both sets to get the proper height.

I've tried a light film of oil on the die and the 45 double flaring part.... helps maybe a wee bit. Made sure the tubing is straight so it's nice and square in the two die halves. Tightened the halves up real good, and extra 1/2 turn with the handle to make sure the tubing doesn't slip when forming.

I even looked on youtube for some hints and saw one guy inverts the tubing flush to the backside at 1st, and takes a file and files it flush to ensure it's square as this is totally important, but my bluepoint die halves don't sit totally flush to each other like the MAC does, and I don't want to marr up his tool.

WTF am I doing wrong?

I do think that after I get a dismal flare and I cut it off, that 1" section from the end shouldn't be used as it might be work hardended. I heard that you should actually use a special saw as the tubing cutter work hardens the tube and makes it difficult to flare squarely.

Do you think it's the NAPA quality steel tubing giving me troubles?

[shackwrrr]

aneal the tubing before you flare it. I have luck with using my step drill to deburr the inside instead of the stupid blade thing that usually never fully removes the bur, then using a file to deburr the outside.

or you could buy this

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=mastercool+flaring+tool&hl=en&prmd=ivns& bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.&biw=1024&bih=653&um=1& ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=8066112543024966688&sa=X&ei=1gtjTs7 yOoq3tged7bCoCg&ved=0CGoQ8wIwAA



Also since you are completely re doing the car why not copper/nickel brake line. It wont rust, and its real easy to bend and flare.
http://www.fedhillusa.com/

[black86glhs]

Hey Steve, I have one of those mastercool setups. Works great. Even I don't have as much trouble as you are. What about a light coat of grease on the cone and die?


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[RattFink]

A good double flare tool really does help. I also have a blue point double flare kit and It works pretty good for me. I was always taught to take a file and chamfer the outside of the tubing your about to flare 45 degrees. My teacher in automotive school taught me this. I feel it really does help.

[supercrackerbox]

I've had better luck cutting the tubing with a hacksaw. It doesn't work harden the metal like a tubing cutter does.

[turbovanman²]

Are you making sure its tight in the clamp? Only have enough line out of the clamp that's the the thickness of the wide part of the die, then are you using the die tool first then finish off the flare with the clamp device-name eludes me right now?

A good tool is a must here, but I've used cheap ones with good results.

[Directconnection]

Are you making sure its tight in the clamp? Only have enough line out of the clamp that's the the thickness of the wide part of the die, then are you using the die tool first then finish off the flare with the clamp device-name eludes me right now?

A good tool is a must here, but I've used cheap ones with good results.

Yesss...... I'm doing it right, but something still gets crooked 90% of the time. Using the 1st step of the die as the height gauge. I also put a marker line on the backside to see if it's slipping, and it isn't. I did have it do it once, and it's obvious in the 1st step if it slips as you don't get that "pill" shape. I heard the copper alloy lines are even worse to double flare.

I have heard about the tubing cutters work hardening the tube, and using a saw, but my hacksaw fubbarred the tubing end when I tried it so I aborted that idea.

Since I've heard that the steel tubing work hardens so easily from just the tubing cutter, etc... I wonder if it's messed up because it sat in my garage for 4 HOT sumers. It gets about 110+ in my garage during the days, and about 55-60 at nights, then winters... never heated. I have some new tubing I picked up yesterday... give that a try.

I tried *light* oil on the die and anvil for the 1st and 2nd steps. Deburred the inside with that blade thingy that does kinda suck, but then I run a drill by hand into the hole afterwards, and I put a slight 45 degree chamfer on the OD as evenly as possible as to not influence the lop-sided flare... I tighten the forming tool in the 1st and 2nd steps evenly as to not influence the die on one side more than the other, make sure the tubing is sticking out of the tool exactly the same amount as the gauge is calling for, going an extra half turn or so on the clamps... making sure the line I am flaring is perfectly straight to begin with, as a slight bend in it will make it lopsided in the 1st step with the die...

The MAC does work a bit better than my 4 year old BluePoint, but not by a lot.

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------

aneal the tubing before you flare it. I have luck with using my step drill to deburr the inside instead of the stupid blade thing that usually never fully removes the bur, then using a file to deburr the outside.

How do you anneal it? Taking heat to the end doesn't sound like something I want to do to a brake line.... but something just isn't right in my technique or the tubing itself.

[shackwrrr]

Yesss...... I'm doing it right, but something still gets crooked 90% of the time. Using the 1st step of the die as the height gauge. I also put a marker line on the backside to see if it's slipping, and it isn't. I did have it do it once, and it's obvious in the 1st step if it slips as you don't get that "pill" shape. I heard the copper alloy lines are even worse to double flare.

I have heard about the tubing cutters work hardening the tube, and using a saw, but my hacksaw fubbarred the tubing end when I tried it so I aborted that idea.

Since I've heard that the steel tubing work hardens so easily from just the tubing cutter, etc... I wonder if it's messed up because it sat in my garage for 4 HOT sumers. It gets about 110+ in my garage during the days, and about 55-60 at nights, then winters... never heated. I have some new tubing I picked up yesterday... give that a try.

I tried *light* oil on the die and anvil for the 1st and 2nd steps. Deburred the inside with that blade thingy that does kinda suck, but then I run a drill by hand into the hole afterwards, and I put a slight 45 degree chamfer on the OD as evenly as possible as to not influence the lop-sided flare... I tighten the forming tool in the 1st and 2nd steps evenly as to not influence the die on one side more than the other, make sure the tubing is sticking out of the tool exactly the same amount as the gauge is calling for, going an extra half turn or so on the clamps... making sure the line I am flaring is perfectly straight to begin with, as a slight bend in it will make it lopsided in the 1st step with the die...

The MAC does work a bit better than my 4 year old BluePoint, but not by a lot.

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------



How do you anneal it? Taking heat to the end doesn't sound like something I want to do to a brake line.... but something just isn't right in my technique or the tubing itself.

yep, just heat the end. The tubing comes annealed it just hardens when you cut it. You heat it to 700 degrees and let it cool and it will be back where it started.

[turbovanman²]

Weird, sounds like your doing it right but for some reason, its just not working?

[black86glhs]

You just don't have the touch!!!!

[turbovanman²]

You just don't have the touch!!!!

I was trying to be more cooth, lol.

[Directconnection]

Weird, sounds like your doing it right but for some reason, its just not working?

Yeah, tell me about it. I brought my BluePoint and my co-worker's MAC over to my friend's house as he's done flares for 40 years, and his came out ok but were still lopsided some. We found that the MAC (which he says looks identical to his Snap-On) has the 2 die halves made with more precision than my BluePoint as they line up *flush* and squarely everytime when clamping on the tubing. But, the die from my BluePoint works better than the MAC die as their's was made too shallow and you have to get nutz for it to bottom out... if you can, which is odd.

I did pick up once nuance that he does and he eyes the die in the 1st step to make sure it's sitting squarely on the tubing before tightening on the 1st step... and adjusts if you can.

You just don't have the touch!!!!

Apparently not when it comes to double flaring.... but with the MAC now I am getting acceptable double flares, which I am going with.

[Directconnection]

Today, I borrowed some of that copper/nickel line from a friend that installed some on his AGS Daytona. I will say, the stuff double flares so much easier and doesn't lop-side so easily, either.... but it does bend and form easier (which can also be a good thing)

I plan to run this on my car since it's easily workable.
I believe it's actually called "kunifer" and referred also to 90/10 as it's 90% copper and 10% nickel. Sounds bad, but isn't as I read some scientific tests on this stuff elsewhere, and it's burst rating is nearly the same as steel, and after cycling tests, it went to 200 cycles where steel tubing failed at 60, yet still retained 85% of it's burst properties, so to speak.

[supercrackerbox]

I did pick up once nuance that he does and he eyes the die in the 1st step to make sure it's sitting squarely on the tubing before tightening on the 1st step... and adjusts if you can.

I think that's probably the biggest part of it. I've managed to make very decent double flares with the cheapo kit from O'Rielly's, but it took me a lot of practice to get there.

[Nemesismachine]

I had the same problem with flaring lines, until I got that Mastercool hydraulic flare tool. That thing makes brake lines a joke. You'll wonder why you didn't get it sooner.

[Directconnection]

How much is it?

I am all set now, though... as my flares are coming out great, but it's partly due to the 90/10 copper nickel line I am using.

One issue with the 90/10 is that if it rubs on something, it will wear through easily compared to steel. One garage had failures from this happening, so now I am wondering how I should best clamp it down as the OEM clamps won't fit. Inlinetube has 3/16"..... but some say to try the rubber insulated ones. Wondering if via vibrations will the rubber allow slight flexing of the line (leading to a failure) vs totally rigid and clamped...

[black86glhs]

You want the rubber lined clamps. Other wise, the metal on metal will cause it to rub through.

[RoadWarrior222]

Probably real easy to solder a clamp onto it too.

[Aries_Turbo]

vac hose split and put around the line, then use the factory clamps.

[Nemesismachine]

How much is it?

About $300. I traded a CRX for mine.