My Masi engine build

[Reaper1]

Here are the pictures of the leakdown tests:

#1:

#2:

#3:

#4:

This is the plug from #4. The rest all look about the same:

---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------

I've got video with commentary I'm working on posting as well.

[Ondonti]

Interference engine?

[Reaper1]

I didn't think so, it's got HUGE dishes in the pistons. However, I am kinda leaning toward bent intake valves...somehow.

[x.Gen]

Here are the pictures of the leakdown tests:

ouch. at first I was jealous when I knew you were buying this (because I'm too broke for a Masi build-up done right). not anymore. sorry to see it.

[turbovanman²]

Are you sure your at TDC with all the valves closed?

Yeah, nice beetle.
I have a feeling I would not enjoy adjusting lash with shim on bucket setups.

Nah, once its set, you almost never have to mess with it again. I did a Volvo head gasket recently, B23F engine, same setup as the Masi, 250,000 km's and the valve lash was still in spec.

[Reaper1]

ouch. at first I was jealous when I knew you were buying this (because I'm too broke for a Masi build-up done right). not anymore. sorry to see it.

I look at it as an investment for my car. It might need some work, but in the end, it'll be worth it! I honestly don't know what is causing the issues I'm seeing just yet. I'm going to find out, however, and remedy them! I didn't go into this thinking it was going to be easy, or cheap. I'm straying away from EVERYTHING I know very well with the 8V to go to a platform that only a few people in the world really push. Is this something I wasn't quite expecting? Sure, but I'm not going to let it hold me back either!

Are you sure your at TDC with all the valves closed?



Nah, once its set, you almost never have to mess with it again. I did a Volvo head gasket recently, B23F engine, same setup as the Masi, 250,000 km's and the valve lash was still in spec.

Simon, I'm pretty sure (99.5%) that I was at TDC with the valves closed on each of those tests, but I think I might try it again tomorrow after I get the manifolds off (if I have time, I have to work in the afternoon and those manifolds are going to put up a fight!). The thing that I thought was strange was that when I had #1 at what appeared to be TDC, the rotor in the distributor was not pointed in the place we are used to on the 8V, BUT, the piston was all the way up, the valves looked closed (the lobes were not depressing the buckets) and the alignment pins in the cams matched the cam caps.

On each of the tests I made sure the pistons was all the way up, and the cams were not actuating the buckets. However, like I said, just to be on the safe side I'm going to retry the tests. I'll post those results as well.

Brent, I agree with Simon. Basically once you have the lash set correctly and the valves have seated themselves, you never really have to touch them again. This is how come RDI can make the solid buckets for these heads.

Oh, Simon, I know some motorcycles use this set-up as well. What's been your experience there?

[Aries_Turbo]

my kz1000 has that same setup. they wear though after so many miles.

brian

---------- Post added at 12:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 AM ----------

i wonder if you have corrosion on the valve/seats from the motor sitting. maybe they just need to be lapped. the shim height will need to be checked after lapping them if thats what it needs.

problem with the shim/bucket setup is that if the valves and seats wear, eventually the base circle of the cam will hold the valve open.

brian

[Reaper1]

my kz1000 has that same setup. they wear though after so many miles.

brian

---------- Post added at 12:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 AM ----------

i wonder if you have corrosion on the valve/seats from the motor sitting. maybe they just need to be lapped. the shim height will need to be checked after lapping them if thats what it needs.

problem with the shim/bucket setup is that if the valves and seats wear, eventually the base circle of the cam will hold the valve open.

brian

I won't know anything for certain until I get it all apart. I'm in the process of uploading the videos now. It took me FOREVER to figure out how to get them from my phone to Youtube! Ugghhh...

[turbovanman²]

Oh, Simon, I know some motorcycles use this set-up as well. What's been your experience there?

Depends on the bike. My 93 CBR900RR, never went out of spec. I raced that bike hard for something like 8 years, put like 100,000 street miles on it, missed shifts, over revved it and the clearance never changed, my 750 is the same but its my race bike. I hear other models need adjusting but cant' remember what.

[x.Gen]

I look at it as an investment for my car. It might need some work, but in the end, it'll be worth it! I honestly don't know what is causing the issues I'm seeing just yet. I'm going to find out, however, and remedy them! I didn't go into this thinking it was going to be easy, or cheap. I'm straying away from EVERYTHING I know very well with the 8V to go to a platform that only a few people in the world really push. Is this something I wasn't quite expecting? Sure, but I'm not going to let it hold me back either!

no doubt you'll be spending further, don't know about investing I might have been more confident in this sort of effort if my local machine shop didn't close down recently...masi parts are hard enough to source, add in trying to find a shop I'd trust with that head, confidence weakens further. anyways, watching and hoping for the best with your build. one of these days I'll have the testicular fortitude to go 16v...

[GLHNSLHT2]

My masi heads ONLY go to RDI because of that reason. I know if Rick screws them up he can at least fix it somehow.

[shadow88]

Without removing the cams, there's no way to tell the valves are closed. The position of the piston shouldn't matter, but I like to start at the top and slowly roll it down to the bottom.

Also an engine that hasn't run in a while usually shows some serious leakdown and lower compression. Example, I take my car out every spring and it runs like crap and comsumes 1/2 liter of oil on the first tank of gas, then it's all good again.

[Aries_Turbo]

Depends on the bike. My 93 CBR900RR, never went out of spec. I raced that bike hard for something like 8 years, put like 100,000 street miles on it, missed shifts, over revved it and the clearance never changed, my 750 is the same but its my race bike. I hear other models need adjusting but cant' remember what.

70's KZ are bikes that need adjustment from time to time. older tech. not as good of materials for things like valves and valve seats i figure.

Without removing the cams, there's no way to tell the valves are closed. The position of the piston shouldn't matter, but I like to start at the top and slowly roll it down to the bottom.

Also an engine that hasn't run in a while usually shows some serious leakdown and lower compression. Example, I take my car out every spring and it runs like crap and comsumes 1/2 liter of oil on the first tank of gas, then it's all good again.

i second this to a certain degree.

if you rev the engine up high on the last shutdown, click the key off while someone opens the TB and fogs the intake tract with oil (coating the valves and stuff) it wont be as bad in the spring. stabil makes an oil specifically for this.

i also find that WD 40 loosens up carboned up rings pretty well too. fill the cyls a few times over time and it loosens stuff as it drains to the pan.

change the oil before running though.

chris, it may just be a little rustiness on the valve seats and valves that needs to be lapped off and some carbon on the rings.

Brian

[Reaper1]

I didn't get a chance to mess with it today. I had house stuff to take care of, then work. The next day will probably be Tuesday.

Anyway, I tend to agree with what has been said. I'm going to go ahead and get the external stuff apart because it's going to take a bit of effort, and then I'm going to retry the test on all the cylinders. I might do it with both the cams in and out since I have to take the head off anyway and the cams have to come out to do that. We'll see.

I got 2 videos up on Youtube, but the other two are proving to be a challenge.

[Reaper1]

I've got to run to Jax tomorrow to help a friend, so I won't be working on the engine tomorrow like I'd hoped.

[Reaper1]

OK...I FINALLY got back to working on the engine. Today was ok. I was able to remove the thermostat cover, thermostat housing, fuel rail, and intake with little trouble. Of course a go around to the back side and things start to take a turn for the worse.

At first I attempted to remove the swingvalve housing of the turbo. I tried VERY hard not to break bolts....I broke every single one (ok, so one I decided to cut off with the hacksaw)! I'm not even sure that an oxy-cetaline torch would have helped, though. The nuts holding it on were so corroded they were different sizes! Some were 13mm, others were 12mm!

OK, so I decided to have a go at the water and oil lines. Those all went smoothly, so no issues there!

Then I decided to just see what was going to happen with the exhaust manifold bolts, since it seems 2 were already broken. I decided to give the CRC Freeze-Off product a try. I honestly don't know if it was the product, or simply that the fasteners just decided to cooperate, but all of the ones I tried came out. Now, most came with the entire stud, but I'll take that! I left the two middle cylinders alone because I still needed to get the turbo off.

Again, I tried heat, PB Blaster, more heat....I STILL broke 2 bolts! I had to resort to a hacksaw to cut through the 3rd one, and that will be the same fate for the last one.

I'm hoping to be able to weld nuts to the remaining stud pieces and be able to remove them that way. I suppose we'll see.

I have pictures and once again I'm going to attempt to upload video, but that will be later tonight. I have to go to work right now.

I hope everyone is having a wonderful Labor Day in the US!! Everyone else...I hope your Monday is going well! LOL

[vipernbox]

Hey if you need any pictures of anything my engine is pretty much unmolested... I kinda got busy this summer racing sailboats.. and don't check in here all that often... but bounce me a PM or an email and I will do what I can to help.. My car should be back underway with a vengeance late october after sailing winds down...


Good to see you are working on this...

[Reaper1]

Hey if you need any pictures of anything my engine is pretty much unmolested... I kinda got busy this summer racing sailboats.. and don't check in here all that often... but bounce me a PM or an email and I will do what I can to help.. My car should be back underway with a vengeance late october after sailing winds down...


Good to see you are working on this...

Thanks!

I worked on the engine some more today. I FINALLY cut the last bolt off the turbo. The turbo looks good overall. There is cracking around the wastegate hole in the exhaust scroll similar to what you would see in the Garrett turbos that are stock in our cars. The manifold to turbo gasket was still sealed, but it was starting to separate between the layers, so it was going to fail eventually.

I was also able to get the remaining nuts/studs holding the exhaust manifold on without any incident. I found out that in order to remove the manifold from the head, you have to remove the rear head drainback from the head. Not too bad, just a banjo bolt, but I didn't know or expect that. I did find some sort of debris in the banjo bolt. It looked like possibly a piece of rag. Just another confirmation that taking this engine apart and inspecting it is the right thing to do!

After I got the manifold off I inspected the manifold gaskets (there are separate gaskets for each cylinder). The two middle cylinders looked good. #1 cylinder was about to burn out. #4 had the "fire ring" sluffed off and the actual gasket was cracked.

The manifold itself is in excellent shape. It is VERY apparent this manifold is LIGHTYEARS better than any of the other manifolds we use, even the TIII. It's not equal length, but there is no cylinder that fights against another, no log part, short runners that go right to the turbo inlet...it's simply BEAUTIFUL for a stock part! It's easy to see how this manifold can support a LOT of power! The problem is that the turbo mounting pattern is not something very standard, so an adapter plate has to be made and welded to it in order to mate a larger turbo to it. I also found out that a spacer needs to also be made to go between the head and manifold in order to push the turbo away from the engine a bit more so it clears the starter.

I've got to download and edit the pictures and see if I can get the videos I did to upload. Once I do that I'll post them!

[GLHNSLHT2]

whoa I haven't heard of a spacer plate being needed to clear the starter?? Did the 284 put the starter in a different place? How's Alan running a 523?

[Reaper1]

From what RDI told me, the IHI is a VERY small turbo (smaller than the Mitsu even). The exhaust manifold places the turbo almost directly OVER the starter on the compressor side. So, if you put a physically larger frame turbo on there, even the T3, the compressor housing will hit the turbo. In order to rectify the problem, you need to space the entire manifold out from the head.

The 284 did place the turbo in a slightly different spot. The tin that goes between the transmission and the engine for the Masi/284 set-up is different in that area, and unique to that engine. I've seen it in person overlapping the tin we are used to on all the rest of the engines. The starter was actually FARTHER away from the engine, putting it closer the the turbo.

I am not going to be running a 284, so I'll be running the regular tin.

I'd mock it up if I could, but all my spare stuff to do that got stolen.